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Your body isn’t really digesting plants. It’s getting what nutritional value it can out of it and then pooping the rest out. Mostly it becomes fiber, which is g

Your body isn’t really digesting plants. It’s getting what nutritional value it can out of it and then pooping the rest out. Mostly it becomes fiber, which is good for you, but it is not going to provide real value like meat does. Meat is the key to a healthy diet.

zeta0134 2y ago
Doesn't this depend heavily on the plant? Lots of vegetarians seem to be able to put together a perfectly balanced diet with no meat whatsoever. (Seems like rice and beans are the key here. Mushrooms are also quite tasty, depending on whether your definition of "plant" extends to fungi.)
- lm28469 2y ago
  Vegetarians can eat eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese, &c. It's extremely easy to hit all your macros and nutrients on a vegetarian diet Vegan diets are another story though
  - phyrex 2y ago
    Vegan is certainly harder but still completely feasible, especially after the initial learning period. I’ve been vegan for 20 years and it’s only ever really annoying when travelling abroad.
    - brightball 2y ago
      I watched the Stanford twin study that was made into a Netflix documentary and it was really interesting. It seemed like the sheer volume of food that vegans had to eat in order to avoid losing healthy muscle was very high. Participants really struggled with it.
      - lukas099 2y ago
        Just use pea or soy protein powder.
      - GeoAtreides 2y ago
        > It seemed like the sheer volume of food 30 ml of olive oil is about 300 calories. 50 grams of peanut butter is 250 calories. Edamame / tofu (soy) has about 18 g of proteins per 100g. Beans have about 17 g per 100g. Peanut butter has 25 g of proteins. Protein daily needs is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. I dunno boss, doesn't seem like a very high volume of food.
        brightball 2y ago
        Just relaying what participants in the study were saying. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of health benefits as well but just about everybody lost muscle mass for that reason.
    - bobajeff 2y ago
      I remember reading a blog a long time ago by sometime who was vegan talking about the long term (something like 9 years) effects of eating a vegan diet without properly supplementing the nutrients you'd get with red meat. Apparently you can easily get long term brain damage if you don't supplement with certain b vitamins. There were also other deficiencies like iron and zinc that would effect you as well. Of course this won't effect people who only do it for a year or 2 so most probably don't ever run into issues.
      - phyrex 2y ago
        Vegan for 20 years: I check my blood every other year or so and there hasn’t been an issue. I take a multivitamin, like everybody should, but maybe that counts as “properly supplementing”? AFAIK the only vitamin that’s easily deficient in a healthy vegan diet is B12, and that’s supplemented in most soy milks
        bobajeff 2y ago
        Well, I think drinking b12 enriched soy milk counts. I don't think it's a given that just because you're vegan you'd drink soy milk either. I don't drink any milk and try to avoid soy and also don't take multivitamins. So in my case it's really pertinent to understand about these deficiencies in case I decide to go vegan.
  - lukas099 2y ago
    What’s hard to get on a vegan diet? The only nutrients I know of that vegans tend to lack are B12 and iron, which are easily supplemented if needed.
    - adrian_b 2y ago
      Plants do not contain vitamins B12, D3 and K2. Humans can transform some of the vitamin K1 from plants into K2 (like they can transform beta-carotene from plants into vitamin A), but it seems that the quantity produced thus is not sufficient. The intestinal bacteria can also produce some K2, but it is unpredictable whether that is sufficient. The vitamin K2 is required by humans for purposes in which it cannot be substituted by K1. Plants do not use iodine and selenium. They may contain some quantities of them, especially of selenium, only when the soil where they have been cultivated happens to be rich in these elements, but it is unpredictable whether they contain enough. Most humans, especially most males, cannot produce enough DHA and EPA fatty acids from the fatty acids available in plants. Besides iron, plants do not contain enough calcium and they frequently contain most of their phosphorus in phytic acid that cannot be digested by humans. The vegans who do not take supplements are prone to osteoporosis. Most humans cannot produce internally enough creatine, choline and taurine to satisfy their needs, so they also need external sources and plants are not among those. A healthy vegan diet must include about a dozen supplements, which is not really a problem, because they are cheap and easily available, except for the fact that many vegans believe myths like "the only nutrients I know of that vegans tend to lack are B12 and iron", so they eventually tend to have health problems, which make many of them to give up on the vegan diet, instead of taking the right supplements.
      - lukas099 2y ago
        Cool, thanks for the research fodder. I wouldn't say I "believed the myth", those were just the only two I was aware of, that's why I asked.
lm28469 2y ago
Meh, you can get all you need from a vegetarian diet, it's been prove over and over and over again The real question if you want to stay healthy is what meat and in what quantities. 300gr of fresh ground beef every other day from the local bio farmer isn't the same as ultra processed bear shaped ham* at every meal. * https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkM8VOSHh03D9r6ZEx5lP_eUAG6jcy1WEyCA&s https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkM8VO...
- jajko 2y ago
  Ground beef wouldn't be usually the best quality, bio or not. Bio category isn't perfect, farmers try to hack around it. We have sometimes really good meat grounded for burgers here in Switzerland, but thats a rare exception.
frankhorrigan 2y ago
Getting what nutritional value it can and pooping out the rest is just literally what eating is.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  I think the point is in comparison to some animals, we don't extract the full amount of nutrition available in plants (which requires a much larger gut and more energy digesting).
  - frankhorrigan 2y ago
    Still an absurd argument. We get a lot of nutritional value from plants and you still take shits after eating meat.
    - 9991 2y ago
      According to the people who are on all meat diets, one’s volume and frequency of poop goes way way down.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    We generally don't eat the toughest parts of plants either. Seeds and fruits are not as hard to digest as many stems or plants like grass. Not to mention that we pre-process a lot of the vegetable matter we eat - either by grinding (e.g. flour) or cooking or both.
    - monero-xmr 2y ago
      Yes plant based food is often ultra processed and highly refined, which is typically what foodies argue is bad (except when it comes to their plant food).
  - valicord 2y ago
    Thankfully humanity invented cooking for this very reason. Progress is great, isn't?
xandrius 2y ago
Whole swats of populations go without touching any red meat (or any meat whatsoever) and be absolutely fine, some say faring even better. Then if someone is personally addicted to meat and/or cannot enjoy other non-animal products providing the same nutrients then it's another topic. But let's not make incorrect statements, red meat is not key to anything.
- salad-tycoon 2y ago
  If I throw a bowl of scraps to my chickens or dog or cats they go for the highest value things first which is meat and fat. Only after everything has been pecked and licked do any of them consider carrots and lettuce. Meat provides many vitamins and nutrients in a highly bioavailable form. No one is addicted to meat. It’s a great nutrient delivery vehicle and looking at how many ways we have invented to cook it and increase its digestability it must have been useful. Grains and plants seem to be fillers to a main meal, throw in a bunch of vegetable matter in a pot with stringy meat to make it go further is how many poor people eat and the reason for the beans and rice. Any family that can afford to throw in some chicken legs or entrails or even muscle meat is going to do so into those beans and rice. In one of the third world countries I lived in they would often tease people who could only afford beans rice and plantains because it was noted they were not as intelligent. Anecdotal sure but a common sense wisdom found in different and less affluent areas. Furthermore, I can take your argument and use it the same. Eg Many people don’t eat vegetables, they only eat meat, and they are doing fine and many say they are doing better than ever. Let’s not make incorrect statements, vegetables are not key to anything.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    The difference here is that I never stated they were, unlike OP. The key, as far as our scientific understanding goes, is to have the right micro/macro nutrient in our diet. Where you get them is not as important. Also, using chickens and cultural norms of other countries (very often shaped by European colonists and their ideals) is not a strong argument as you might think. In many countries being overweight is a sign of wealth and hence desired but we know that it's not the best in terms of long-term health. P.S. You say nobody is addicted to meat? Take any random 3 people and ask them not to eat meat for 1 week. Let's see how that goes.

zeta0134 2y ago

Doesn't this depend heavily on the plant? Lots of vegetarians seem to be able to put together a perfectly balanced diet with no meat whatsoever. (Seems like rice and beans are the key here. Mushrooms are also quite tasty, depending on whether your definition of "plant" extends to fungi.)

lm28469 2y ago
Vegetarians can eat eggs, milk, yogurt, cheese, &c. It's extremely easy to hit all your macros and nutrients on a vegetarian diet Vegan diets are another story though
- phyrex 2y ago
  Vegan is certainly harder but still completely feasible, especially after the initial learning period. I’ve been vegan for 20 years and it’s only ever really annoying when travelling abroad.
  - brightball 2y ago
    I watched the Stanford twin study that was made into a Netflix documentary and it was really interesting. It seemed like the sheer volume of food that vegans had to eat in order to avoid losing healthy muscle was very high. Participants really struggled with it.
    - lukas099 2y ago
      Just use pea or soy protein powder.
    - GeoAtreides 2y ago
      > It seemed like the sheer volume of food 30 ml of olive oil is about 300 calories. 50 grams of peanut butter is 250 calories. Edamame / tofu (soy) has about 18 g of proteins per 100g. Beans have about 17 g per 100g. Peanut butter has 25 g of proteins. Protein daily needs is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. I dunno boss, doesn't seem like a very high volume of food.
      - brightball 2y ago
        Just relaying what participants in the study were saying. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of health benefits as well but just about everybody lost muscle mass for that reason.
  - bobajeff 2y ago
    I remember reading a blog a long time ago by sometime who was vegan talking about the long term (something like 9 years) effects of eating a vegan diet without properly supplementing the nutrients you'd get with red meat. Apparently you can easily get long term brain damage if you don't supplement with certain b vitamins. There were also other deficiencies like iron and zinc that would effect you as well. Of course this won't effect people who only do it for a year or 2 so most probably don't ever run into issues.
    - phyrex 2y ago
      Vegan for 20 years: I check my blood every other year or so and there hasn’t been an issue. I take a multivitamin, like everybody should, but maybe that counts as “properly supplementing”? AFAIK the only vitamin that’s easily deficient in a healthy vegan diet is B12, and that’s supplemented in most soy milks
      - bobajeff 2y ago
        Well, I think drinking b12 enriched soy milk counts. I don't think it's a given that just because you're vegan you'd drink soy milk either. I don't drink any milk and try to avoid soy and also don't take multivitamins. So in my case it's really pertinent to understand about these deficiencies in case I decide to go vegan.
- lukas099 2y ago
  What’s hard to get on a vegan diet? The only nutrients I know of that vegans tend to lack are B12 and iron, which are easily supplemented if needed.
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    Plants do not contain vitamins B12, D3 and K2. Humans can transform some of the vitamin K1 from plants into K2 (like they can transform beta-carotene from plants into vitamin A), but it seems that the quantity produced thus is not sufficient. The intestinal bacteria can also produce some K2, but it is unpredictable whether that is sufficient. The vitamin K2 is required by humans for purposes in which it cannot be substituted by K1. Plants do not use iodine and selenium. They may contain some quantities of them, especially of selenium, only when the soil where they have been cultivated happens to be rich in these elements, but it is unpredictable whether they contain enough. Most humans, especially most males, cannot produce enough DHA and EPA fatty acids from the fatty acids available in plants. Besides iron, plants do not contain enough calcium and they frequently contain most of their phosphorus in phytic acid that cannot be digested by humans. The vegans who do not take supplements are prone to osteoporosis. Most humans cannot produce internally enough creatine, choline and taurine to satisfy their needs, so they also need external sources and plants are not among those. A healthy vegan diet must include about a dozen supplements, which is not really a problem, because they are cheap and easily available, except for the fact that many vegans believe myths like "the only nutrients I know of that vegans tend to lack are B12 and iron", so they eventually tend to have health problems, which make many of them to give up on the vegan diet, instead of taking the right supplements.
    - lukas099 2y ago
      Cool, thanks for the research fodder. I wouldn't say I "believed the myth", those were just the only two I was aware of, that's why I asked.

lm28469 2y ago

Meh, you can get all you need from a vegetarian diet, it's been prove over and over and over again The real question if you want to stay healthy is what meat and in what quantities. 300gr of fresh ground beef every other day from the local bio farmer isn't the same as ultra processed bear shaped ham* at every meal. * https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkM8VOSHh03D9r6ZEx5lP_eUAG6jcy1WEyCA&s https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkM8VO...

jajko 2y ago
Ground beef wouldn't be usually the best quality, bio or not. Bio category isn't perfect, farmers try to hack around it. We have sometimes really good meat grounded for burgers here in Switzerland, but thats a rare exception.

frankhorrigan 2y ago

Getting what nutritional value it can and pooping out the rest is just literally what eating is.

rcxdude 2y ago
I think the point is in comparison to some animals, we don't extract the full amount of nutrition available in plants (which requires a much larger gut and more energy digesting).
- frankhorrigan 2y ago
  Still an absurd argument. We get a lot of nutritional value from plants and you still take shits after eating meat.
  - 9991 2y ago
    According to the people who are on all meat diets, one’s volume and frequency of poop goes way way down.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  We generally don't eat the toughest parts of plants either. Seeds and fruits are not as hard to digest as many stems or plants like grass. Not to mention that we pre-process a lot of the vegetable matter we eat - either by grinding (e.g. flour) or cooking or both.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    Yes plant based food is often ultra processed and highly refined, which is typically what foodies argue is bad (except when it comes to their plant food).
- valicord 2y ago
  Thankfully humanity invented cooking for this very reason. Progress is great, isn't?

xandrius 2y ago

Whole swats of populations go without touching any red meat (or any meat whatsoever) and be absolutely fine, some say faring even better. Then if someone is personally addicted to meat and/or cannot enjoy other non-animal products providing the same nutrients then it's another topic. But let's not make incorrect statements, red meat is not key to anything.

salad-tycoon 2y ago
If I throw a bowl of scraps to my chickens or dog or cats they go for the highest value things first which is meat and fat. Only after everything has been pecked and licked do any of them consider carrots and lettuce. Meat provides many vitamins and nutrients in a highly bioavailable form. No one is addicted to meat. It’s a great nutrient delivery vehicle and looking at how many ways we have invented to cook it and increase its digestability it must have been useful. Grains and plants seem to be fillers to a main meal, throw in a bunch of vegetable matter in a pot with stringy meat to make it go further is how many poor people eat and the reason for the beans and rice. Any family that can afford to throw in some chicken legs or entrails or even muscle meat is going to do so into those beans and rice. In one of the third world countries I lived in they would often tease people who could only afford beans rice and plantains because it was noted they were not as intelligent. Anecdotal sure but a common sense wisdom found in different and less affluent areas. Furthermore, I can take your argument and use it the same. Eg Many people don’t eat vegetables, they only eat meat, and they are doing fine and many say they are doing better than ever. Let’s not make incorrect statements, vegetables are not key to anything.
- xandrius 2y ago
  The difference here is that I never stated they were, unlike OP. The key, as far as our scientific understanding goes, is to have the right micro/macro nutrient in our diet. Where you get them is not as important. Also, using chickens and cultural norms of other countries (very often shaped by European colonists and their ideals) is not a strong argument as you might think. In many countries being overweight is a sign of wealth and hence desired but we know that it's not the best in terms of long-term health. P.S. You say nobody is addicted to meat? Take any random 3 people and ask them not to eat meat for 1 week. Let's see how that goes.