3 ms·

It's news that's untrue and made up, rather than mistaken reporting. I know we can never know real truth in all circumstances, and there'll always be situations

by jemmyw 2y ago

It's news that's untrue and made up, rather than mistaken reporting. I know we can never know real truth in all circumstances, and there'll always be situations of vagueness and ambiguity. But there's still the things that did happen, to some level of veracity, and the things that people made up. The dissemination of shit people have made up while also lying and saying it's the truth does seem to present a problem.

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
Unless people are caught red-handed fabricating those, how can you know it's fake? You think that cross-referencing or having "reliable sources" like Wikipedia will help you know what's going on on the other side of world (e.g Ukraine/Russia)? It's probable even the people in the involved countries don't truly know what's going on. The only facts are what I can perceive with my own senses and what comes directly from people I know enough to have a judgment I consider reliable on their trustworthiness. Fact is that entities using the expression fake news are often not better than the ones they accuse.
- alpaca128 2y ago
  > The only facts are what I can perceive with my own senses Our perception and memories are known to be very unreliable.
- yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
  The russian federation have repeatedly been shown to produce fake news. Massive amounts of fake news. Suggesting that nobody can really know the difference between fantasy and reality is a misinformation tactic used by the kremlin to create more useful idiots who suggest the same.
  - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
    Can you imagine that "the kremlin" says the same to its population? Why do you think your own powers that be are any different? Reading your comments in this thread, I know beforehand that my replying will be useless, but I'm bored.
    - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
      The kremlin said that Ukraine invaded russia. The rest of the world said russia invaded Ukraine. If you can’t see which one is right and which one is wrong, then yes, there’s no point in you replying, to anyone, about anything.
- kmudrick 2y ago
  >The only facts are what I can perceive with my own senses and what comes directly from people I know enough to have a judgment I consider reliable on their trustworthiness. "My Mama says that alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush!" - The Waterboy If the Waterboy trusts Mama does this make it a fact?
  - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
    I don't see your point, you can judge you own mother untrustworthy. The point is that you need to have an extended and real life contact with someone before deciding to trust them. Ultimately, the word "fact" in this context means "what someone considers a fact". You can be wrong, but if you can't trust your own senses or judgment, how can you live in this world? Well, rhetorical question, since there are no sincere solipsists.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  I'm well aware that Western media aren't necessarily reporting the ground truth about that war. But it's an interesting one in that there's so much camera footage, mostly from Ukrainians, but also from Russian soldiers with smartphones. So, while current events are always skewed in reporting, osint has been able to piece together a more accurate picture afterwards.
throwaway290 2y ago
> The dissemination of shit people have made up while also lying and saying it's the truth does seem to present a problem. The problem is that what you think of as "made up shit" and "lying" can be manipulated without you knowing. For example, Covid lab leak theory was deliberately made to look like fake news by some guys who would lose money if it were true: https://web.archive.org/web/20210709212358id_/https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/374/bmj.n1656.full.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20210709212358id_/https://www.bm... There is no need to be a conspiracist to simply understand that with 100% likelihood at any time there is something true that you think is fake news, no matter which side you are on.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  I followed that news story at the time. There was plenty of speculation in the media, but the facts were laid out - there was a lab in the city, they were studying these types of viruses, that type of virus was also present in local wildlife that was traded. Then it became clear that the Chinese govt wasn't going to investigate or admit if it was a leak, accidental or not. At which point I file as we'll never know + who cares at this point. And then after that it blew up as a political football in the US. It's not fake news, it's just pointless opinions. Fake news is saying it was a lab leak, or it wasn't a lab leak. Neither is a true statement. Both are polarising and ill informed positions. In any case, I don't disagree with your premise that we can be manipulated quite easily.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    It was a lab leak, or it wasn't a lab leak is just an opinion, anyone can have one. I'm talking when reputable media reports on people who say "it may be a lab leak" as conspiracists, stories and posts get demoted on FB an IG, etc. That's manipulation and "fake news". It was widely believed on US left apparently, yet those who bought that angle and who talk about "fake news" like they have some magic radar are mostly the same people. > At which point I file as we'll never know + who cares at this point We just went through a traumatic pandemic with pretty bad effects and pretty massive human life toll, so... everyone?

by jemmyw 2y ago

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago

Unless people are caught red-handed fabricating those, how can you know it's fake? You think that cross-referencing or having "reliable sources" like Wikipedia will help you know what's going on on the other side of world (e.g Ukraine/Russia)? It's probable even the people in the involved countries don't truly know what's going on. The only facts are what I can perceive with my own senses and what comes directly from people I know enough to have a judgment I consider reliable on their trustworthiness. Fact is that entities using the expression fake news are often not better than the ones they accuse.

alpaca128 2y ago
> The only facts are what I can perceive with my own senses Our perception and memories are known to be very unreliable.
yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
The russian federation have repeatedly been shown to produce fake news. Massive amounts of fake news. Suggesting that nobody can really know the difference between fantasy and reality is a misinformation tactic used by the kremlin to create more useful idiots who suggest the same.
- BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
  Can you imagine that "the kremlin" says the same to its population? Why do you think your own powers that be are any different? Reading your comments in this thread, I know beforehand that my replying will be useless, but I'm bored.
  - yakshaving_jgt 2y ago
    The kremlin said that Ukraine invaded russia. The rest of the world said russia invaded Ukraine. If you can’t see which one is right and which one is wrong, then yes, there’s no point in you replying, to anyone, about anything.
kmudrick 2y ago
>The only facts are what I can perceive with my own senses and what comes directly from people I know enough to have a judgment I consider reliable on their trustworthiness. "My Mama says that alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush!" - The Waterboy If the Waterboy trusts Mama does this make it a fact?
- BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
  I don't see your point, you can judge you own mother untrustworthy. The point is that you need to have an extended and real life contact with someone before deciding to trust them. Ultimately, the word "fact" in this context means "what someone considers a fact". You can be wrong, but if you can't trust your own senses or judgment, how can you live in this world? Well, rhetorical question, since there are no sincere solipsists.
jemmyw 2y ago
I'm well aware that Western media aren't necessarily reporting the ground truth about that war. But it's an interesting one in that there's so much camera footage, mostly from Ukrainians, but also from Russian soldiers with smartphones. So, while current events are always skewed in reporting, osint has been able to piece together a more accurate picture afterwards.

throwaway290 2y ago

> The dissemination of shit people have made up while also lying and saying it's the truth does seem to present a problem. The problem is that what you think of as "made up shit" and "lying" can be manipulated without you knowing. For example, Covid lab leak theory was deliberately made to look like fake news by some guys who would lose money if it were true: https://web.archive.org/web/20210709212358id_/https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/374/bmj.n1656.full.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20210709212358id_/https://www.bm... There is no need to be a conspiracist to simply understand that with 100% likelihood at any time there is something true that you think is fake news, no matter which side you are on.

jemmyw 2y ago
I followed that news story at the time. There was plenty of speculation in the media, but the facts were laid out - there was a lab in the city, they were studying these types of viruses, that type of virus was also present in local wildlife that was traded. Then it became clear that the Chinese govt wasn't going to investigate or admit if it was a leak, accidental or not. At which point I file as we'll never know + who cares at this point. And then after that it blew up as a political football in the US. It's not fake news, it's just pointless opinions. Fake news is saying it was a lab leak, or it wasn't a lab leak. Neither is a true statement. Both are polarising and ill informed positions. In any case, I don't disagree with your premise that we can be manipulated quite easily.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  It was a lab leak, or it wasn't a lab leak is just an opinion, anyone can have one. I'm talking when reputable media reports on people who say "it may be a lab leak" as conspiracists, stories and posts get demoted on FB an IG, etc. That's manipulation and "fake news". It was widely believed on US left apparently, yet those who bought that angle and who talk about "fake news" like they have some magic radar are mostly the same people. > At which point I file as we'll never know + who cares at this point We just went through a traumatic pandemic with pretty bad effects and pretty massive human life toll, so... everyone?