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Look I lean pretty far left. But some times I feel like my fellow lefties are blind to their right leaning peers. Someone needs to clue the author in to middle

Look I lean pretty far left. But some times I feel like my fellow lefties are blind to their right leaning peers. Someone needs to clue the author in to middle skill jobs. Plumbers, electricians, machinists, elevator repair... There are a lot of people going into industry's because of parents or extended family gave them a foot in the door. Because many of them started young and by 18 are already "middle skilled". You now have kids in red states who understand the math behind loans because they watch their parents get burned, because they use the internet, because they know folks who went to college, didn't finish and spent years paying it off. Candidly I would grant for many of them skipping school makes more sense than getting a degree that amounts to under water basket weaving when it comes to job prospects.

ipnon 2y ago
Young people choosing not to matriculate because universities are too expensive, too ideological, too useless… will do more to fix the universities than an infinite stream of think pieces, congressional appropriations or rubber stamping by the boards of trustees.
chiefalchemist 2y ago
In short, the crisis isn't enrollment - left or right. The "crisis" is that an investment in a college degree pays inferior returns. The solution for any given higher edu institution is simple: 1) provide the knowledge and skills that make a degteed student more valuable in the market (i.e., to get a better job, higher salary, etc.) 2) Lower the cost of tuition. Demand is down so price should follow, obviously. Unfortunately after years of cheap and easy money (i.e., student loans) these institutions have become slow, bloated, etc. Some deserve to perish.
- rickydroll 2y ago
  I think you're onto something. My take away is that you talking about elite overproduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction). FTA: Elite overproduction is a concept developed by Peter Turchin that describes the condition of a society that is producing too many potential elite members relative to its ability to absorb them into the power structure.[1][2][3] This, he hypothesizes, is a cause for social instability, as those left out of power feel aggrieved by their relatively low socioeconomic status.[1][2][3] --- The nonviolent unwinding of elite overproduction apparently happened in the 50s and 60s with strong labor unions improving the financial well-being of laborers and high taxes on the very well-to-do recycling their excess wealth back into society. I look at the current shift towards trades as another form of reversing the access number of elites. IMO, It's worth spending some time contemplating this concept and its potential application to society today. ----- Side note: every time I say or hear the phrase elite overproduction, I think of Bertie Wooster and the Drones club. You're welcome.
  - matrix87 2y ago
    for some reason in this culture, people think that working in an office, having a degree, living in a big metro area, etc makes them "elite". nobody ever called these people "elite" except themselves
    - chiefalchemist 2y ago
      That's part of the overproduction process, isn't it? That is, those at the top have those in the middle and midddle-top believing they're on the inside. Nah. They're the suckers. They're the exploited. They're where the wealth is being extracted from. Given human biases and blind spots, no one in that positions wants to admit they've been played. Geez, look at the article. Written by a leftie for The Left and "blaming" The Right when in fact The Right has it right. That is, "we're done being suckered."
      - matrix87 2y ago
        the author isn't left... > Conservatism and participation in its core institutions - marriage, church, and the military - are associated with better mental health also anyone who's trying to argue that widespread educational attainment is bad for society deserves to be laughed at
        chiefalchemist 2y ago
        I sit corrected on the author. I should have said "entitled elite" ( which spans political ideology). That aside... Anyone who believes a degree === education deserves to be made a sucker. Anyone who believes a degree === the ability to string thoughts together deserves to be laughed at. Look around, we HAVE increased the ubiquity of structured education and yet we keep enlisting students who can't figure out their career doesn't pay enough to cover their excessive loans at their "I MUST go there" over-rated private college / edu. Left or right, the overproduction system is fueled by such suckers.
karaterobot 2y ago
I'm not sure it's what you intended, but this sounds like you might be saying that a perfectly acceptable future would be to have an elite class of educated, left-leaning liberals who go to college, while their conservative, right-leaning peers go to trade schools. Not all that different than today, just codified, concretized into an actual, literal class system. This feels dystopian to me, and probably would have a bad outcome. While I definitely agree that going into a trade is a great option, which should be (and, I think, sort of is) destigmatized, the problem I see is that not many plumbers or electricians get elected to congress, or the presidency, or head the gigantic tech and finance companies that rule the world. I want diverse viewpoints among my ruling elite, if I have to have them (which I do). Even if it means I don't agree with all them, and they don't agree with me, I think it's probably better in the long run. Just trying to avoid handing my grandchildren an eloi/morlock future.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  >> I'm not sure it's what you intended, but this sounds like you might be saying that a perfectly acceptable future would be to have an elite class of educated, The meat of this article is that right leaning kids are the ones not going to college. IM not suggesting it, its what thee article says, there's literal data for it. The folks I know who are hard core republicans all have jobs that puts dirt under their nails. They do the sorts of jobs that your either trained for or have to go dig up some info from esoteric sources (think the whole earth catalog). It's the I, Pencil problem... there are lots of smart people out there who are very educated that have ZERO clue about how the most basic parts of our world function.
  - safety1st 2y ago
    Tradies can do well financially, but they're not the ones who are going to end up setting policy for the next generation. We have a lot of data that shows us it's specifically Ivy Leaguers who will do that, actually - they are massively overrepresented in public and private leadership positions. Are you going to tell me that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Ivy League was like 90% conservatives, you wouldn't be concerned about the direction this is going to send things? I think that's the point the person who responded to you was trying to make, the elite class which leads the country, makes the laws etc. should be reflective of the people it governs (that has been a core liberal tenet of the civil rights movement for many years). I don't want a one party system regardless of which party it ends up being. Universities train our future leaders and they need to be politically inclusive.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
matrix87 2y ago
> Candidly I would grant for many of them skipping school makes more sense than getting a degree that amounts to under water basket weaving when it comes to job prospects. If you have a degree and give people this advice then you're probably not a good person
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  > If you have a degree and give people this advice then you're probably not a good person I can point you to plenty of people with no college and middle skill jobs who are happier with what they do and make more than people with degrees. They also have way less debt. There are plenty of smart people who have knowledge and training that allows them to do things most college graduates would be baffled by. Looking down on them because they have dirt under their nails was a mistake we made 50 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve1aWWDNJ60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve1aWWDNJ60 This is middle skill labor in action. They make more than most people who get history degrees for good reason. We only NEED one of them. (And I fuckin love history so..)
  - matrix87 2y ago
    Why history major vs trades? Isn't that sort of a false dichotomy? Would you present it this way to your kids? Or just other people's?

ipnon 2y ago

Young people choosing not to matriculate because universities are too expensive, too ideological, too useless… will do more to fix the universities than an infinite stream of think pieces, congressional appropriations or rubber stamping by the boards of trustees.

chiefalchemist 2y ago

In short, the crisis isn't enrollment - left or right. The "crisis" is that an investment in a college degree pays inferior returns. The solution for any given higher edu institution is simple: 1) provide the knowledge and skills that make a degteed student more valuable in the market (i.e., to get a better job, higher salary, etc.) 2) Lower the cost of tuition. Demand is down so price should follow, obviously. Unfortunately after years of cheap and easy money (i.e., student loans) these institutions have become slow, bloated, etc. Some deserve to perish.

rickydroll 2y ago
I think you're onto something. My take away is that you talking about elite overproduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction). FTA: Elite overproduction is a concept developed by Peter Turchin that describes the condition of a society that is producing too many potential elite members relative to its ability to absorb them into the power structure.[1][2][3] This, he hypothesizes, is a cause for social instability, as those left out of power feel aggrieved by their relatively low socioeconomic status.[1][2][3] --- The nonviolent unwinding of elite overproduction apparently happened in the 50s and 60s with strong labor unions improving the financial well-being of laborers and high taxes on the very well-to-do recycling their excess wealth back into society. I look at the current shift towards trades as another form of reversing the access number of elites. IMO, It's worth spending some time contemplating this concept and its potential application to society today. ----- Side note: every time I say or hear the phrase elite overproduction, I think of Bertie Wooster and the Drones club. You're welcome.
- matrix87 2y ago
  for some reason in this culture, people think that working in an office, having a degree, living in a big metro area, etc makes them "elite". nobody ever called these people "elite" except themselves
  - chiefalchemist 2y ago
    That's part of the overproduction process, isn't it? That is, those at the top have those in the middle and midddle-top believing they're on the inside. Nah. They're the suckers. They're the exploited. They're where the wealth is being extracted from. Given human biases and blind spots, no one in that positions wants to admit they've been played. Geez, look at the article. Written by a leftie for The Left and "blaming" The Right when in fact The Right has it right. That is, "we're done being suckered."
    - matrix87 2y ago
      the author isn't left... > Conservatism and participation in its core institutions - marriage, church, and the military - are associated with better mental health also anyone who's trying to argue that widespread educational attainment is bad for society deserves to be laughed at
      - chiefalchemist 2y ago
        I sit corrected on the author. I should have said "entitled elite" ( which spans political ideology). That aside... Anyone who believes a degree === education deserves to be made a sucker. Anyone who believes a degree === the ability to string thoughts together deserves to be laughed at. Look around, we HAVE increased the ubiquity of structured education and yet we keep enlisting students who can't figure out their career doesn't pay enough to cover their excessive loans at their "I MUST go there" over-rated private college / edu. Left or right, the overproduction system is fueled by such suckers.

karaterobot 2y ago

I'm not sure it's what you intended, but this sounds like you might be saying that a perfectly acceptable future would be to have an elite class of educated, left-leaning liberals who go to college, while their conservative, right-leaning peers go to trade schools. Not all that different than today, just codified, concretized into an actual, literal class system. This feels dystopian to me, and probably would have a bad outcome. While I definitely agree that going into a trade is a great option, which should be (and, I think, sort of is) destigmatized, the problem I see is that not many plumbers or electricians get elected to congress, or the presidency, or head the gigantic tech and finance companies that rule the world. I want diverse viewpoints among my ruling elite, if I have to have them (which I do). Even if it means I don't agree with all them, and they don't agree with me, I think it's probably better in the long run. Just trying to avoid handing my grandchildren an eloi/morlock future.

zer00eyz 2y ago
>> I'm not sure it's what you intended, but this sounds like you might be saying that a perfectly acceptable future would be to have an elite class of educated, The meat of this article is that right leaning kids are the ones not going to college. IM not suggesting it, its what thee article says, there's literal data for it. The folks I know who are hard core republicans all have jobs that puts dirt under their nails. They do the sorts of jobs that your either trained for or have to go dig up some info from esoteric sources (think the whole earth catalog). It's the I, Pencil problem... there are lots of smart people out there who are very educated that have ZERO clue about how the most basic parts of our world function.
- safety1st 2y ago
  Tradies can do well financially, but they're not the ones who are going to end up setting policy for the next generation. We have a lot of data that shows us it's specifically Ivy Leaguers who will do that, actually - they are massively overrepresented in public and private leadership positions. Are you going to tell me that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Ivy League was like 90% conservatives, you wouldn't be concerned about the direction this is going to send things? I think that's the point the person who responded to you was trying to make, the elite class which leads the country, makes the laws etc. should be reflective of the people it governs (that has been a core liberal tenet of the civil rights movement for many years). I don't want a one party system regardless of which party it ends up being. Universities train our future leaders and they need to be politically inclusive.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

matrix87 2y ago

> Candidly I would grant for many of them skipping school makes more sense than getting a degree that amounts to under water basket weaving when it comes to job prospects. If you have a degree and give people this advice then you're probably not a good person

zer00eyz 2y ago
> If you have a degree and give people this advice then you're probably not a good person I can point you to plenty of people with no college and middle skill jobs who are happier with what they do and make more than people with degrees. They also have way less debt. There are plenty of smart people who have knowledge and training that allows them to do things most college graduates would be baffled by. Looking down on them because they have dirt under their nails was a mistake we made 50 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve1aWWDNJ60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve1aWWDNJ60 This is middle skill labor in action. They make more than most people who get history degrees for good reason. We only NEED one of them. (And I fuckin love history so..)
- matrix87 2y ago
  Why history major vs trades? Isn't that sort of a false dichotomy? Would you present it this way to your kids? Or just other people's?