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> Per wikipedia[1], 73% of individuals in America earn income less than the average teacher salary of $69k. This is irrelevant to determining whether or not a

> Per wikipedia[1], 73% of individuals in America earn income less than the average teacher salary of $69k. This is irrelevant to determining whether or not a given occupation is underpaid (or overpaid). Supply and demand determine the appropriate price, and if you think there are insufficient teachers of insufficient quality, then the price is too low. Similarly, if you had a too many well qualified people clamoring to be teachers, then the price would be too high. However, given what we know about what teachers have to deal with on a day in and day out basis, plus having to forego vacations during the school year and having an extremely rigid schedule, I would assume people with options (proxy for high quality) to forego teaching if the pay was only “average”. And that “average” is for professions requiring similar levels of time/stress/injury risk/time off/flexibility/upward potential/etc, so a simple mean or median average of all US working adults’ pay is meaningless.

IncreasePosts 2y ago
Sure, and that is an economic problem for the state/county or whoever sets the paybands to figure out. My usage of "underpaid" is more about individuals self reporting on being underpaid. Teachers are probably the #1 group of workers I hear frequently complaining about being underpaid. I would have guessed they were getting paid like $40k on average based on the complaints.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Your anecdotal data about who complains more seems like a meaningless distinction. You don’t think hotel maids and strawberry pickers and retail workers and food prep workers complain about being underpaid? The only relevant question is are the people who are teachers now of sufficient inherent quality and of sufficient motivation? If not, then there is likely a problem with the prices (since it seems evident across many, many jurisdictions and management levels). Also does not help that violent and disruptive students are somehow not automatically kicked out of school.
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    No, it is not a meaningless distinction. You are using underpaid as a take on supply/demand problem, whereas I am using underpaid as a person's personal take on their salary. If the supply/demand curve showed that teachers should be getting paid around $20k/yr, they would almost universally claim to be underpaid, despite being able to fill the open positions. Saying "Well, you're not actually underpaid" means nothing if people feel like they are underpaid.
cloverich 2y ago
> what teachers have to deal with on a day in and day out basis Yes, this is bad > plus having to forego vacations during the school year ? Teachers don't typically work during christmas, spring break, etc, do they? Plus they get the entire summer off? Whatever the arguments around sufficient salary, worker protection etc, I can hardly see vacation time being a factor. I'd absolutely kill to have summers off.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  It is a pro and a con. The teachers I know have ~6 weeks off in the summer, and the other non school days, they have training and whatnot. And those summer weeks are often the business travel days. I much prefer traveling on off peak days, and would hate being restricted to travel during the busiest times of everything. As for other holidays, the teachers I know seem to work a lot of hours at home, so not necessarily a “holiday”. And the same problem exists, only being able to do things at busy times. Which isn’t bad, but it would suck if that was the case for 40 straight years.

IncreasePosts 2y ago

Sure, and that is an economic problem for the state/county or whoever sets the paybands to figure out. My usage of "underpaid" is more about individuals self reporting on being underpaid. Teachers are probably the #1 group of workers I hear frequently complaining about being underpaid. I would have guessed they were getting paid like $40k on average based on the complaints.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
Your anecdotal data about who complains more seems like a meaningless distinction. You don’t think hotel maids and strawberry pickers and retail workers and food prep workers complain about being underpaid? The only relevant question is are the people who are teachers now of sufficient inherent quality and of sufficient motivation? If not, then there is likely a problem with the prices (since it seems evident across many, many jurisdictions and management levels). Also does not help that violent and disruptive students are somehow not automatically kicked out of school.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  No, it is not a meaningless distinction. You are using underpaid as a take on supply/demand problem, whereas I am using underpaid as a person's personal take on their salary. If the supply/demand curve showed that teachers should be getting paid around $20k/yr, they would almost universally claim to be underpaid, despite being able to fill the open positions. Saying "Well, you're not actually underpaid" means nothing if people feel like they are underpaid.

cloverich 2y ago

> what teachers have to deal with on a day in and day out basis Yes, this is bad > plus having to forego vacations during the school year ? Teachers don't typically work during christmas, spring break, etc, do they? Plus they get the entire summer off? Whatever the arguments around sufficient salary, worker protection etc, I can hardly see vacation time being a factor. I'd absolutely kill to have summers off.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
It is a pro and a con. The teachers I know have ~6 weeks off in the summer, and the other non school days, they have training and whatnot. And those summer weeks are often the business travel days. I much prefer traveling on off peak days, and would hate being restricted to travel during the busiest times of everything. As for other holidays, the teachers I know seem to work a lot of hours at home, so not necessarily a “holiday”. And the same problem exists, only being able to do things at busy times. Which isn’t bad, but it would suck if that was the case for 40 straight years.