7 ms·

I heard this when my career started, and it wasn’t true then or now. The skills just aren’t there. I run interviews and struggle to find anyone, anywhere, that

I heard this when my career started, and it wasn’t true then or now. The skills just aren’t there. I run interviews and struggle to find anyone, anywhere, that can actually program. English proficiency is also hard to come by. This wouldn’t be an issue in most of Canada, but I’ve yet to see a Canadian remote applicant.

deleted 2y ago
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rightbyte 2y ago
I'd wish Joel Spolsky didn't popularize the concept of "programmers can't program". It have made hireing so convuluted since it boils down to tabs versus spaces. I'd rather argue that the methodology to hire is flawed generally and dice rolls are probably better then most processes. Especially the riddle and leetcode ones.
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  I give no leetcode problems. Most people I interview cannot get a class that they themselves are writing to compile or run.
  - ohthatsnotright 2y ago
    Are you hiring? I'll take that bet, and I'm looking.
- hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
  Spolsky's fizzbuzz article is the standard reference, but the reason it got so popular is that it resonated with anyone who's ever tried hiring a developer. It's not "tabs vs spaces"; there are just many people employed as software engineers who 1) cannot translate an English (or other human language) description into working code, and 2) have no idea how software actually works. They know enough about the mechanics of programming to copy and paste code from Stackoverflow/ChatGPT and use git, but if they encounter a novel problem they are totally lost. Hiring them is like hiring someone who only knows how to drive to be your car mechanic. If you've been in the industry for 5+ years, think hard and I'm sure you can at least think of one example of a coworker you've had that fits this description.
  - mrbombastic 2y ago
    Is there a Spolsky article or is it this Jeff Atwood article?: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ If it is this one, encountering at least one example of a coworker over 5+ years is pretty far away from the numbers implied. “ 199 out of 200 applicants for every programming job can't write code at all.” I am very skeptical of this.
    - hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
      Whoops yes, got them mixed up. Same sentiment, though. Keep in mind your coworkers are the ones who passed the interview. How much hiring have you done? 199/200 of applicants not being able to code is probably an underestimate these days; now that it's so easy to apply for jobs with one click on LinkedIn, Indeed, etc. any job you post will get flooded with resumes from people who are completely unqualified and have literally never held a programming job or have any computer-related education. Can't blame people for optimism, I suppose? If we jump to the next level of the funnel, to people who have passed an initial resume screen and are doing a phone or in-person interview, I estimate at least 60% of those candidates are still unqualified to hold a position as an actual software developer solving actual technical problems with code, in my personal experience.
      - geraldwhen 2y ago
        The only people who are incredulous aren’t running interviews, or maybe charitably they work someplace where people want to work.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- szundi 2y ago
  I feel you but he was right - sadly
hxriv 2y ago
Risk aversion.
leetrout 2y ago
Define "actually program". What are you evaluating them on? Leetcode?
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  Simple test. I’d say half struggle to declare a variable. Maybe 1/4 can get a class to compile. 1/6 can get code to run. 1/20 can get code to run and maybe start to solve the problem.
  - leetrout 2y ago
    I am very curious if it is actually simple or not. I've had some "easy" interview questions that are pure CS trivia. But this and your other comments make it sound practical... can you just post it?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
      Given a 10x10 array filled with numbers. For a given (x,y) starting point, search the 3x3 grid starting with that point as its upper left corner and indicate if it contains a particular number. Ignore error conditions such as running off the edge of the array. I estimate that 80% of candidates could not accomplish this in an hour. 50% of them could not even get out of the gate.
      - em-bee 2y ago
        this? array data = (array(int))random_string(100)/10; int x = random(10); int y = random(10); int seek = random(255); int findgrid(array data, int x, int y, int seek){ for(int i=0;i<=2;i++){ for(int j=0;j<=2;j++){ write("%d:%d\n", data[x+i][y+j], data[x+i][y+j]==seek); if(data[x+i][y+j]==seek){ return true; } } } } took me 15 minutes, and only because i am tired and took a break in between. i can't imagine anyone calling themselves programmer not being able to do that. 80%? hard to believe it's that bad.
francisofascii 2y ago
I think there are plenty of smart, experienced developers rooted in smaller cities, making CRUD apps for companies you never heard of, making barely over 100K. The local market rate is stagnant. These Devs can only make much more if they can find a remote position from a high COL based company willing to take a chance on them.
- dvaun 2y ago
  This is what I did as well. I’m located in Bakersfield in the California central valley, and the local market is abysmal compared to what you would find from a one-hour drive south to Santa Clarita, or up to SFV. Remote may bring down wages for workers located in HCOL, but it’s been great for me as I don’t have the ability to relocate.
- gen3 2y ago
  Thats what I did. I literally tripled my salary and landed a better work environment. Time difference is great too, now half of my schedule almost always has no meetings!
mgkimsal 2y ago
> I run interviews and struggle to find anyone, anywhere, that can actually program And yet... I run in to many who still get hired. I've got some colleagues working at shops where people struggling with the concept of a front-end UI that calls a paginated API endpoint. Get page 1, then get page 2 when you need it, etc. They keep filing 'bugs' and someone just bumps up the 'max per page' from 50->80->100->120, etc. The team lead stopped allowing those PRs to go through, and others complained loudly enough that the PR blocking is overridden. Because... "pagination is hard". But these people are still employed. The thought is the team lead is being 'unreasonable' by 'demanding' pagination. I regularly hear horror stories like this, and wonder "how do people like this get hired?" and also "why can so many of my skilled colleagues not get hired?" The gatekeeping and inability to evaluate skills, and perhaps a reticence to hire above your own skill level... all of these seem to be creating more stressors on an already bad job market.
- szundi 2y ago
  That they get hired just underlines the parent commenter’s point: good dev is a scarce resource
  - trenchgun 2y ago
    But also: "why can so many of my skilled colleagues not get hired?" It is not just about the absolute scarcity of resource, it is about the ratio between bad and good. Needle in a haystack problem.
  - ramesh31 2y ago
    >good dev is a scarce resource Indeed it is and always will be. But the issue is that companies don't need good devs. They need "make the thing work" devs. And if they can make the thing work for long enough to generate revenue, it's all that matters. Driving customer value down while at the same time depressing wages, and telling both parties to just deal with it. It's become the standard operating model for all large companies now.
- geraldwhen 2y ago
  I have the simplest programming interview you can imagine in the language and IDE of the candidates choice. Almost no one passes.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rightbyte 2y ago

I'd wish Joel Spolsky didn't popularize the concept of "programmers can't program". It have made hireing so convuluted since it boils down to tabs versus spaces. I'd rather argue that the methodology to hire is flawed generally and dice rolls are probably better then most processes. Especially the riddle and leetcode ones.

geraldwhen 2y ago
I give no leetcode problems. Most people I interview cannot get a class that they themselves are writing to compile or run.
- ohthatsnotright 2y ago
  Are you hiring? I'll take that bet, and I'm looking.
hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
Spolsky's fizzbuzz article is the standard reference, but the reason it got so popular is that it resonated with anyone who's ever tried hiring a developer. It's not "tabs vs spaces"; there are just many people employed as software engineers who 1) cannot translate an English (or other human language) description into working code, and 2) have no idea how software actually works. They know enough about the mechanics of programming to copy and paste code from Stackoverflow/ChatGPT and use git, but if they encounter a novel problem they are totally lost. Hiring them is like hiring someone who only knows how to drive to be your car mechanic. If you've been in the industry for 5+ years, think hard and I'm sure you can at least think of one example of a coworker you've had that fits this description.
- mrbombastic 2y ago
  Is there a Spolsky article or is it this Jeff Atwood article?: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ If it is this one, encountering at least one example of a coworker over 5+ years is pretty far away from the numbers implied. “ 199 out of 200 applicants for every programming job can't write code at all.” I am very skeptical of this.
  - hnthrowaway6543 2y ago
    Whoops yes, got them mixed up. Same sentiment, though. Keep in mind your coworkers are the ones who passed the interview. How much hiring have you done? 199/200 of applicants not being able to code is probably an underestimate these days; now that it's so easy to apply for jobs with one click on LinkedIn, Indeed, etc. any job you post will get flooded with resumes from people who are completely unqualified and have literally never held a programming job or have any computer-related education. Can't blame people for optimism, I suppose? If we jump to the next level of the funnel, to people who have passed an initial resume screen and are doing a phone or in-person interview, I estimate at least 60% of those candidates are still unqualified to hold a position as an actual software developer solving actual technical problems with code, in my personal experience.
    - geraldwhen 2y ago
      The only people who are incredulous aren’t running interviews, or maybe charitably they work someplace where people want to work.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
szundi 2y ago
I feel you but he was right - sadly

hxriv 2y ago

Risk aversion.

leetrout 2y ago

Define "actually program". What are you evaluating them on? Leetcode?

geraldwhen 2y ago
Simple test. I’d say half struggle to declare a variable. Maybe 1/4 can get a class to compile. 1/6 can get code to run. 1/20 can get code to run and maybe start to solve the problem.
- leetrout 2y ago
  I am very curious if it is actually simple or not. I've had some "easy" interview questions that are pure CS trivia. But this and your other comments make it sound practical... can you just post it?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Given a 10x10 array filled with numbers. For a given (x,y) starting point, search the 3x3 grid starting with that point as its upper left corner and indicate if it contains a particular number. Ignore error conditions such as running off the edge of the array. I estimate that 80% of candidates could not accomplish this in an hour. 50% of them could not even get out of the gate.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      this? array data = (array(int))random_string(100)/10; int x = random(10); int y = random(10); int seek = random(255); int findgrid(array data, int x, int y, int seek){ for(int i=0;i<=2;i++){ for(int j=0;j<=2;j++){ write("%d:%d\n", data[x+i][y+j], data[x+i][y+j]==seek); if(data[x+i][y+j]==seek){ return true; } } } } took me 15 minutes, and only because i am tired and took a break in between. i can't imagine anyone calling themselves programmer not being able to do that. 80%? hard to believe it's that bad.

francisofascii 2y ago

I think there are plenty of smart, experienced developers rooted in smaller cities, making CRUD apps for companies you never heard of, making barely over 100K. The local market rate is stagnant. These Devs can only make much more if they can find a remote position from a high COL based company willing to take a chance on them.

dvaun 2y ago
This is what I did as well. I’m located in Bakersfield in the California central valley, and the local market is abysmal compared to what you would find from a one-hour drive south to Santa Clarita, or up to SFV. Remote may bring down wages for workers located in HCOL, but it’s been great for me as I don’t have the ability to relocate.
gen3 2y ago
Thats what I did. I literally tripled my salary and landed a better work environment. Time difference is great too, now half of my schedule almost always has no meetings!

mgkimsal 2y ago

> I run interviews and struggle to find anyone, anywhere, that can actually program And yet... I run in to many who still get hired. I've got some colleagues working at shops where people struggling with the concept of a front-end UI that calls a paginated API endpoint. Get page 1, then get page 2 when you need it, etc. They keep filing 'bugs' and someone just bumps up the 'max per page' from 50->80->100->120, etc. The team lead stopped allowing those PRs to go through, and others complained loudly enough that the PR blocking is overridden. Because... "pagination is hard". But these people are still employed. The thought is the team lead is being 'unreasonable' by 'demanding' pagination. I regularly hear horror stories like this, and wonder "how do people like this get hired?" and also "why can so many of my skilled colleagues not get hired?" The gatekeeping and inability to evaluate skills, and perhaps a reticence to hire above your own skill level... all of these seem to be creating more stressors on an already bad job market.

szundi 2y ago
That they get hired just underlines the parent commenter’s point: good dev is a scarce resource
- trenchgun 2y ago
  But also: "why can so many of my skilled colleagues not get hired?" It is not just about the absolute scarcity of resource, it is about the ratio between bad and good. Needle in a haystack problem.
- ramesh31 2y ago
  >good dev is a scarce resource Indeed it is and always will be. But the issue is that companies don't need good devs. They need "make the thing work" devs. And if they can make the thing work for long enough to generate revenue, it's all that matters. Driving customer value down while at the same time depressing wages, and telling both parties to just deal with it. It's become the standard operating model for all large companies now.
geraldwhen 2y ago
I have the simplest programming interview you can imagine in the language and IDE of the candidates choice. Almost no one passes.