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Personally I feel it's fine for them to operate at a loss, it's a public service, akin to the fire department or library. The amount of good it does society to

by Drakim 2y ago

Personally I feel it's fine for them to operate at a loss, it's a public service, akin to the fire department or library. The amount of good it does society to get cars off the road is staggering. The lack of bus drivers simply comes down to an unwillingness to pay more. It's the exact same problem with teachers, where the wage is extremely low but they would rather just have a shortage rather than paying more.

wongarsu 2y ago
Crucially, the road network also operates at a loss
- akira2501 2y ago
  In the first level analysis. Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by roads you see that they pay for themselves several times over.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by a decent metro system you see that they pay for itself several times over. That's even easier to measure because these gains are localized.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      Right. So let's have both! You can't replace the capabilities of roads with metro and you can't replace the convenience of a metro with roads. Specifically, though, viewing roads or metro as a "loss leader" is probably an inappropriate analysis.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Actually, it has been shown that removing cars increase commerce.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      This is a universal outcome with research to back it up?
      - prmoustache 2y ago
        yes but I am about to go to bed so the link mihht come only tomorrow. Also some studies have calculated the impact on health in the society and calculated a cost to the society per km of driving a car and the money saved when doing the same km walking or with a bicycle.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- twoodfin 2y ago
  The difference is that the gas tax or similar user fees could easily (if politically feasible) be scaled up to cover both capital and operating expenses for the entire road and highway network. If you tried to do that for merely the operating costs of many transit systems, they’d enter a death spiral.
- silisili 2y ago
  From what I'd read, the majority of road wear comes from tractor trailers, who don't nearly cover their costs. It may help to either tax them directly, or indirectly via diesel. Yes, costs pass to consumers, but it would also encourage more done via ship and train, I feel. Even that would be a huge help to clearing up traffic and lowering infra spend.

by Drakim 2y ago

wongarsu 2y ago

Crucially, the road network also operates at a loss

akira2501 2y ago
In the first level analysis. Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by roads you see that they pay for themselves several times over.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by a decent metro system you see that they pay for itself several times over. That's even easier to measure because these gains are localized.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    Right. So let's have both! You can't replace the capabilities of roads with metro and you can't replace the convenience of a metro with roads. Specifically, though, viewing roads or metro as a "loss leader" is probably an inappropriate analysis.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Actually, it has been shown that removing cars increase commerce.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    This is a universal outcome with research to back it up?
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      yes but I am about to go to bed so the link mihht come only tomorrow. Also some studies have calculated the impact on health in the society and calculated a cost to the society per km of driving a car and the money saved when doing the same km walking or with a bicycle.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
twoodfin 2y ago
The difference is that the gas tax or similar user fees could easily (if politically feasible) be scaled up to cover both capital and operating expenses for the entire road and highway network. If you tried to do that for merely the operating costs of many transit systems, they’d enter a death spiral.
silisili 2y ago
From what I'd read, the majority of road wear comes from tractor trailers, who don't nearly cover their costs. It may help to either tax them directly, or indirectly via diesel. Yes, costs pass to consumers, but it would also encourage more done via ship and train, I feel. Even that would be a huge help to clearing up traffic and lowering infra spend.