8 ms·

Global tourism is booming. These people would rather it wasn't

47 points by onemoresoop 2y ago

jncfhnb 2y ago
As someone who aggressively believes UBI is terrible idea it seems like a good choice for tourism based economies. A big tax on, say, restaurants for non citizen ID holders would help raise prices in a collusive way and reduce the volume of tourists in a way that free market competition makes very difficult.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- harha 2y ago
  Kind of exists already as tourist traps and is preferable to me than another tax.
  - skhunted 2y ago
    This is not correct. In, say, Aspen locals are priced out. If there was a two tiered pricing system this could alleviate some major concerns. Haven’t thought about unintended consequences of this. Just wanted to point out that what you said is not correct in my opinion.
    - harha 2y ago
      Haven’t been to Aspen, what I’ve seen in Europe though is that the locals either own the establishments, work there or are friends with owners and typically either earn in line with the high prices or get preferential treatment from the owners. No need for the complexity of a tax and intervention when people can figure it out themselves.
      - DemocracyFTW2 2y ago
        Unfortunately this is neither true for the island of Sylt and it's not true for the city of Berlin, either. Locals do get priced out, apart from the lucky few who—most of the time—own property that they can either survive in or profit from (your own apartment w/o rent hikes and/or your 2nd apartment that you do hike the rent of). The workforce is mostly sourced from younger, cheaper, more mobile folks who can better put up with more work, more shared living spaces that are further away or more expensive and so on. When owners get old and property prices are constantly rising they will likely sell at some point to start over somewhere else or retire, and when that happens, it's as a matter of course, more or less over for the local folks because then the egregious property price as to be amortized by driving up rents no matter what. After WW2 the population of Sylt was predominantly 'indigenous' (families who've been living there forever). Today, almost nobody who was born on the island still lives there, and nobody who lives there (for a few weeks per year) as any relation to the island (except using it to hang out every now and then). In Berlin it's not quite that bad but the satirical person in me wants to add, in an optimistic fashion, "we're getting there!"
- rangestransform 2y ago
  This would only work for the biggest tourist destinations. I much prefer the race to the bottom with things like tax free shopping for tourists.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    What you prefer as a tourist is not much a concern “Biggest” is not particularly relevant either. The question is simply whether it’s overcrowded by tourists or not.
    - pc86 2y ago
      The answer to it being overcrowded is for prices to increase, which happens naturally over time. Things get less crowded and more profitable, more places can open up which pushes prices back down, which increases tourism, etc. etc. Eventually you find an equilibrium.
      - jgeada 2y ago
        Great for the rich tourists for which the destination is a choice, not so great for the people that actually live there. It is exactly this dynamic that causes so many locals to be anti-tourists.
      - jncfhnb 2y ago
        Raising prices in a competitive market with many players is a prisoners dilemma and is not easy to do. The market has little pressure to solve for overcrowding.
- hackeraccount 2y ago
  This is not unlike saying people in the country would be better off if we taxed exports. That might well be the case or it might not but as a general matter the only countries that do that are both rich and willing to concede that it's not doing much good.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    I can’t parse what you’re trying to say
    - hackeraccount 2y ago
      Taxing tourists is equivalent to taxing exports.
- grecy 2y ago
  A few countries do this kind of thing already. In Bolivia, for example, if you have foreign plates on your car you pay more than double for gas and diesel.
  - hxriv 2y ago
    Can’t tell if that’s a good thing or a bad thing for Bolivia.
- tryptophan 2y ago
  Or you know do what lots of places already do and charge hotels/rentals a nightly fee for each tourist.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    I mean, sure, that’s another example of a tourist tax. But the spending side was the bit I was interested in
cbrozefsky 2y ago
Appropriate enforcement of regulation of short term rentals is key. This happens in the US as well.
ieie3366 2y ago
It’s extremely easy, cheap and stress-free to travel nowadays due to smartphones. The untapped market potential in western countries is still crazy. I’d say 80% of the people I know live stuck within their immediate home area or region, they don’t realize a taxi to the local international airport and 5-10 hours on a plane would change their entire world view.
- spacemadness 2y ago
  I am so confused by the context of this. Isn’t the article saying people living in tourist cities DON’T want more people to travel?
- jonnycat 2y ago
  I would guess that 80% (or more) of those 80% would rather not change their entire world view.
  - ieie3366 2y ago
    No, it’s more like.. they don’t realize it’s a thing you can just do.
    - oldpersonintx 2y ago
      you're forgetting about the thousands of dollars go read about the percentage of the population that have less than $500 emergency savings and then you won't wonder why they aren't going to Greece for a week HN SV types don't realize most people working hourly jobs don't have the concept of longish vacations...if you leave for a week your job is given to someone else
- happytoexplain 2y ago
  They don't realize it would, or they don't believe it would? Are you so confident about your assessment of what life experiences would have what effects on each of those 80% of people?
- tossandthrow 2y ago
octocop 2y ago
Foreigners buying property are not tourists. I would say that's a way bigger issue than tourism.
- mcntsh 2y ago
  Tourists sleep in spaces that could be houses for residents.
  - octocop 2y ago
    Said tourists still pay the local residents money for that. So the locals make money. Which in my opinion is a good thing.
    - mcntsh 2y ago
      Probably the vast majority of local residents aren't landlords making money on tourist housing...
      - octocop 2y ago
        Which was my main point from the get go
        mcntsh 2y ago
        I don't really understand your point... that the problem is non-local people making money on housing? Even if it was only local people making money on housing this would be a net negative to local residents. Housing that exists is placed on the "global" market rather than the local one. Unavailable to anyone but tourists.
        chucksta 2y ago
        They are saying foreigners consuming for private use/cleaning money and taking them off the market entirely is a separate and greater issue. Not for rental. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apartment-next-door-is-owned-by-an-oligarch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apa...
sed3 2y ago
Many rentals are not used by tourists, but people who come and stay for couple of months or years. Europe has open borders, and it is perfectly ethical to retire on Canary Islands. Locals should demand better salary.
andsoitis 2y ago
The World Economic Forum thinks these are the top countries for travel and tourism: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2024/05/tourism-travel-pandemic-economy/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2024/05/tourism-travel-pandem... US, Spain, Japan, France, Australia.
locallost 2y ago
Unfortunately the hype for some locations is so strong that I can't imagine it being at all interesting. I don't want to bitch about tourists while being a tourist, but it's definitely the case of it's better to zig when everyone zags. I also hope that with time we move away from going places so that you can take a picture and say I was there, which let's face it is what a lot of people do. In a way it's getting worse - I spent a day with some friends visiting Berlin and they had a big list of things they want to do. We wanted to eat, but they wanted to eat the best burger in town (according to TripAdvisor or whatever), that was half an hour away. I managed to convince them to eat at a small local place - it was fine! It's only going to get worse with AI. "Recommend me a place to visit" - "how about xxxxx" (times million for everyone else asking the same question. For what it's worth my nicest family vacation in recent years was in Sweden of all places. The sea was cold, but the nature was nice, the weather was pleasant and everything was very relaxing. Also on topic this year is the first time ever going to Majorca - sorry locals!!
- isthispermanent 2y ago
  If it’s popular on the gram or someone has mentioned it to me, I will not go. The best stuff is not popular yet.
more_corn 2y ago
Sounds like the entire problem is Airbnb. Which is a shave because I personally prefer Airbnb. The cleanest solution I’ve seen is cities enacting a local rule that the shortest duration rental is 30d. Tourists go back to hotels, locals can afford to live, landlords make slightly less money.
2four2 2y ago
Short term rentals have really made the housing crisis worse. I have boycotted them entirely, but it's a drop in the ocean.
- whstl 2y ago
  Most of the people who relocated recently that I personally know are on "short-term rentals". I put that in quotes because it's always the same: they stay for six months in one place, two months in another, but in the end they stay in those units for years until they find a real apartment. The units are small, overpriced, sometimes illegal sublets, furnished with cheap Ikea and dressed as vacation rentals to avoid legal issues. They are incredibly easy to rent, showing that there are units available in the market, just not for long-term rental. Make of that what you will, but it doesn't feel like a healthy market for me.
wiseowise 2y ago
Greedy locals and corpos are taking advantage of zero regulation, but tourists are to blame, of course.
- isthispermanent 2y ago
  For sure some locals love it, cash walking into town. If you own a shop or one of the two little hotels, minting money
- spacemadness 2y ago
  Similar to recycling. Put the onus on the individual and walk away with piles of money and zero real blame.
- ghusto 2y ago
  If you were to give the majority of the locals where I live the choice, they would get rid of every tourist here. What we do have is councils and business owners trying to make more money, though whether they're "greedy" or not is debatable. Tourists are absolutely to blame. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads to come here. They know it's overcrowded, they know they're a nuisance, they have no respect for people trying to actually _live_ here, and yet they still come, in their hordes.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > If you were to give the majority of the locals where I live the choice, they would get rid of every tourist here. What we do have is councils and business owners trying to make more money, though whether they're "greedy" or not is debatable. And that's of course tourists fault. > Tourists are absolutely to blame. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads to come here. They know it's overcrowded, they know they're a nuisance, they have no respect for people trying to actually _live_ here, and yet they still come, in their hordes. Have you ever thought that maybe your place attracts wrong crowd?
renewiltord 2y ago
I’d say about the most interesting difference between me and everyone else on this subject is that I have never been upset by other people enjoying things that once only I had access to. It seems quite common that people want to “keep their spot”. People in San Francisco want “transplants to leave”. People in the UK want “no more immigrants”. People in Mallorca want “no more tourists”. “Cupertino is full”. And all my life I have enjoyed seeing other people enjoy the things I’ve liked. There’s fun in discovering something new. And a long hike in Patagonia without seeing someone is a lot harder now than it used to be. But it’s just more people experiencing the things I like. Things like “it’s too crowded there” seem more like just a property of the Universe as a location approaches the equilibrium crowd that it can support. My sleepy home village now has tall towers to house people. The home I grew up in and played with animals is gone. But it feels better that it is this way, with homes for humans. Denser rather than sprawled. This isn’t even a rational position I’ve brought myself to. I just don’t have a negative emotional reaction to it. I wonder what factors place one on this side and what factors place one on the other side. And which one is adaptive. Them or me. Am I unbelievably unique? Or is it that folks like us just keep quiet?
- isthispermanent 2y ago
  What’s your age?
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Late thirties. Though I spoke to my parents and they seem to have the same view, late sixties.
- orev 2y ago
  By far the major issue is that an influx of tourists generally includes (at least some) people who don’t have the same respect for places as the locals, and they trash it. And you end up with nobody being able to enjoy it anymore.
  - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
11101010001100 2y ago
I prefer camping.
- andsoitis 2y ago
  especially camping in a foreign country!
- isthispermanent 2y ago
  Years ago I used to really thumb my nose at the National Park permit system, now I love it.
isthispermanent 2y ago
Instagram is the worst thing that happened to travel.
ghusto 2y ago
> But why does there suddenly seem to be such a strong sense of grievance in places where for decades large numbers of tourists have been the norm? > The answer, it would seem, is complicated I think there's a simple explanation; there's just too goddamn many tourists in comparison to before. There are noticeably more people living where I grew up than when I was say 10. I'd estimate somewhere between 2.5 and 3 times more. If there are also about 2.5 times more tourists, that's unbearable. I now live somewhere where tourists like to visit, for some reason. During the day (almost all year round) it feels like there are more tourists than locals. The town is now self-designing itself for them, and now the people who live here. It's more than a little frustrating living here now.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > The town is now self-designing itself for them, and now the people who live here. Town that self-designs itself for tourists attracts more tourists. Shocking.

47 points by onemoresoop 2y ago

As someone who aggressively believes UBI is terrible idea it seems like a good choice for tourism based economies. A big tax on, say, restaurants for non citizen ID holders would help raise prices in a collusive way and reduce the volume of tourists in a way that free market competition makes very difficult.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
harha 2y ago
Kind of exists already as tourist traps and is preferable to me than another tax.
- skhunted 2y ago
  This is not correct. In, say, Aspen locals are priced out. If there was a two tiered pricing system this could alleviate some major concerns. Haven’t thought about unintended consequences of this. Just wanted to point out that what you said is not correct in my opinion.
  - harha 2y ago
    Haven’t been to Aspen, what I’ve seen in Europe though is that the locals either own the establishments, work there or are friends with owners and typically either earn in line with the high prices or get preferential treatment from the owners. No need for the complexity of a tax and intervention when people can figure it out themselves.
    - DemocracyFTW2 2y ago
      Unfortunately this is neither true for the island of Sylt and it's not true for the city of Berlin, either. Locals do get priced out, apart from the lucky few who—most of the time—own property that they can either survive in or profit from (your own apartment w/o rent hikes and/or your 2nd apartment that you do hike the rent of). The workforce is mostly sourced from younger, cheaper, more mobile folks who can better put up with more work, more shared living spaces that are further away or more expensive and so on. When owners get old and property prices are constantly rising they will likely sell at some point to start over somewhere else or retire, and when that happens, it's as a matter of course, more or less over for the local folks because then the egregious property price as to be amortized by driving up rents no matter what. After WW2 the population of Sylt was predominantly 'indigenous' (families who've been living there forever). Today, almost nobody who was born on the island still lives there, and nobody who lives there (for a few weeks per year) as any relation to the island (except using it to hang out every now and then). In Berlin it's not quite that bad but the satirical person in me wants to add, in an optimistic fashion, "we're getting there!"
rangestransform 2y ago
This would only work for the biggest tourist destinations. I much prefer the race to the bottom with things like tax free shopping for tourists.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  What you prefer as a tourist is not much a concern “Biggest” is not particularly relevant either. The question is simply whether it’s overcrowded by tourists or not.
  - pc86 2y ago
    The answer to it being overcrowded is for prices to increase, which happens naturally over time. Things get less crowded and more profitable, more places can open up which pushes prices back down, which increases tourism, etc. etc. Eventually you find an equilibrium.
    - jgeada 2y ago
      Great for the rich tourists for which the destination is a choice, not so great for the people that actually live there. It is exactly this dynamic that causes so many locals to be anti-tourists.
    - jncfhnb 2y ago
      Raising prices in a competitive market with many players is a prisoners dilemma and is not easy to do. The market has little pressure to solve for overcrowding.
hackeraccount 2y ago
This is not unlike saying people in the country would be better off if we taxed exports. That might well be the case or it might not but as a general matter the only countries that do that are both rich and willing to concede that it's not doing much good.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  I can’t parse what you’re trying to say
  - hackeraccount 2y ago
    Taxing tourists is equivalent to taxing exports.
grecy 2y ago
A few countries do this kind of thing already. In Bolivia, for example, if you have foreign plates on your car you pay more than double for gas and diesel.
- hxriv 2y ago
  Can’t tell if that’s a good thing or a bad thing for Bolivia.
tryptophan 2y ago
Or you know do what lots of places already do and charge hotels/rentals a nightly fee for each tourist.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  I mean, sure, that’s another example of a tourist tax. But the spending side was the bit I was interested in

cbrozefsky 2y ago

Appropriate enforcement of regulation of short term rentals is key. This happens in the US as well.

ieie3366 2y ago

It’s extremely easy, cheap and stress-free to travel nowadays due to smartphones. The untapped market potential in western countries is still crazy. I’d say 80% of the people I know live stuck within their immediate home area or region, they don’t realize a taxi to the local international airport and 5-10 hours on a plane would change their entire world view.

spacemadness 2y ago
I am so confused by the context of this. Isn’t the article saying people living in tourist cities DON’T want more people to travel?
jonnycat 2y ago
I would guess that 80% (or more) of those 80% would rather not change their entire world view.
- ieie3366 2y ago
  No, it’s more like.. they don’t realize it’s a thing you can just do.
  - oldpersonintx 2y ago
    you're forgetting about the thousands of dollars go read about the percentage of the population that have less than $500 emergency savings and then you won't wonder why they aren't going to Greece for a week HN SV types don't realize most people working hourly jobs don't have the concept of longish vacations...if you leave for a week your job is given to someone else
happytoexplain 2y ago
They don't realize it would, or they don't believe it would? Are you so confident about your assessment of what life experiences would have what effects on each of those 80% of people?
tossandthrow 2y ago

octocop 2y ago

Foreigners buying property are not tourists. I would say that's a way bigger issue than tourism.

mcntsh 2y ago
Tourists sleep in spaces that could be houses for residents.
- octocop 2y ago
  Said tourists still pay the local residents money for that. So the locals make money. Which in my opinion is a good thing.
  - mcntsh 2y ago
    Probably the vast majority of local residents aren't landlords making money on tourist housing...
    - octocop 2y ago
      Which was my main point from the get go
      - mcntsh 2y ago
        I don't really understand your point... that the problem is non-local people making money on housing? Even if it was only local people making money on housing this would be a net negative to local residents. Housing that exists is placed on the "global" market rather than the local one. Unavailable to anyone but tourists.
        chucksta 2y ago
        They are saying foreigners consuming for private use/cleaning money and taking them off the market entirely is a separate and greater issue. Not for rental. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apartment-next-door-is-owned-by-an-oligarch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/upshot/when-the-empty-apa...

sed3 2y ago

Many rentals are not used by tourists, but people who come and stay for couple of months or years. Europe has open borders, and it is perfectly ethical to retire on Canary Islands. Locals should demand better salary.

andsoitis 2y ago

The World Economic Forum thinks these are the top countries for travel and tourism: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2024/05/tourism-travel-pandemic-economy/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2024/05/tourism-travel-pandem... US, Spain, Japan, France, Australia.

locallost 2y ago

Unfortunately the hype for some locations is so strong that I can't imagine it being at all interesting. I don't want to bitch about tourists while being a tourist, but it's definitely the case of it's better to zig when everyone zags. I also hope that with time we move away from going places so that you can take a picture and say I was there, which let's face it is what a lot of people do. In a way it's getting worse - I spent a day with some friends visiting Berlin and they had a big list of things they want to do. We wanted to eat, but they wanted to eat the best burger in town (according to TripAdvisor or whatever), that was half an hour away. I managed to convince them to eat at a small local place - it was fine! It's only going to get worse with AI. "Recommend me a place to visit" - "how about xxxxx" (times million for everyone else asking the same question. For what it's worth my nicest family vacation in recent years was in Sweden of all places. The sea was cold, but the nature was nice, the weather was pleasant and everything was very relaxing. Also on topic this year is the first time ever going to Majorca - sorry locals!!

isthispermanent 2y ago
If it’s popular on the gram or someone has mentioned it to me, I will not go. The best stuff is not popular yet.

more_corn 2y ago

Sounds like the entire problem is Airbnb. Which is a shave because I personally prefer Airbnb. The cleanest solution I’ve seen is cities enacting a local rule that the shortest duration rental is 30d. Tourists go back to hotels, locals can afford to live, landlords make slightly less money.

2four2 2y ago

Short term rentals have really made the housing crisis worse. I have boycotted them entirely, but it's a drop in the ocean.

whstl 2y ago
Most of the people who relocated recently that I personally know are on "short-term rentals". I put that in quotes because it's always the same: they stay for six months in one place, two months in another, but in the end they stay in those units for years until they find a real apartment. The units are small, overpriced, sometimes illegal sublets, furnished with cheap Ikea and dressed as vacation rentals to avoid legal issues. They are incredibly easy to rent, showing that there are units available in the market, just not for long-term rental. Make of that what you will, but it doesn't feel like a healthy market for me.

wiseowise 2y ago

Greedy locals and corpos are taking advantage of zero regulation, but tourists are to blame, of course.

isthispermanent 2y ago
For sure some locals love it, cash walking into town. If you own a shop or one of the two little hotels, minting money
spacemadness 2y ago
Similar to recycling. Put the onus on the individual and walk away with piles of money and zero real blame.
ghusto 2y ago
If you were to give the majority of the locals where I live the choice, they would get rid of every tourist here. What we do have is councils and business owners trying to make more money, though whether they're "greedy" or not is debatable. Tourists are absolutely to blame. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads to come here. They know it's overcrowded, they know they're a nuisance, they have no respect for people trying to actually _live_ here, and yet they still come, in their hordes.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > If you were to give the majority of the locals where I live the choice, they would get rid of every tourist here. What we do have is councils and business owners trying to make more money, though whether they're "greedy" or not is debatable. And that's of course tourists fault. > Tourists are absolutely to blame. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads to come here. They know it's overcrowded, they know they're a nuisance, they have no respect for people trying to actually _live_ here, and yet they still come, in their hordes. Have you ever thought that maybe your place attracts wrong crowd?

renewiltord 2y ago

I’d say about the most interesting difference between me and everyone else on this subject is that I have never been upset by other people enjoying things that once only I had access to. It seems quite common that people want to “keep their spot”. People in San Francisco want “transplants to leave”. People in the UK want “no more immigrants”. People in Mallorca want “no more tourists”. “Cupertino is full”. And all my life I have enjoyed seeing other people enjoy the things I’ve liked. There’s fun in discovering something new. And a long hike in Patagonia without seeing someone is a lot harder now than it used to be. But it’s just more people experiencing the things I like. Things like “it’s too crowded there” seem more like just a property of the Universe as a location approaches the equilibrium crowd that it can support. My sleepy home village now has tall towers to house people. The home I grew up in and played with animals is gone. But it feels better that it is this way, with homes for humans. Denser rather than sprawled. This isn’t even a rational position I’ve brought myself to. I just don’t have a negative emotional reaction to it. I wonder what factors place one on this side and what factors place one on the other side. And which one is adaptive. Them or me. Am I unbelievably unique? Or is it that folks like us just keep quiet?

isthispermanent 2y ago
What’s your age?
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Late thirties. Though I spoke to my parents and they seem to have the same view, late sixties.
orev 2y ago
By far the major issue is that an influx of tourists generally includes (at least some) people who don’t have the same respect for places as the locals, and they trash it. And you end up with nobody being able to enjoy it anymore.
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago

11101010001100 2y ago

I prefer camping.

andsoitis 2y ago
especially camping in a foreign country!
isthispermanent 2y ago
Years ago I used to really thumb my nose at the National Park permit system, now I love it.

isthispermanent 2y ago

Instagram is the worst thing that happened to travel.

ghusto 2y ago

> But why does there suddenly seem to be such a strong sense of grievance in places where for decades large numbers of tourists have been the norm? > The answer, it would seem, is complicated I think there's a simple explanation; there's just too goddamn many tourists in comparison to before. There are noticeably more people living where I grew up than when I was say 10. I'd estimate somewhere between 2.5 and 3 times more. If there are also about 2.5 times more tourists, that's unbearable. I now live somewhere where tourists like to visit, for some reason. During the day (almost all year round) it feels like there are more tourists than locals. The town is now self-designing itself for them, and now the people who live here. It's more than a little frustrating living here now.

wiseowise 2y ago
> The town is now self-designing itself for them, and now the people who live here. Town that self-designs itself for tourists attracts more tourists. Shocking.