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> If someone ever succeeds at dragging AdSense into the OSS world The absolute last thing I want is for the OSS world to fall prey to the perverse incentives o

by kibwen 2y ago

> If someone ever succeeds at dragging AdSense into the OSS world The absolute last thing I want is for the OSS world to fall prey to the perverse incentives of the ad industry. Advertising needs to be purged, not embraced.

tialaramex 2y ago
Advertising is potentially useful, it's the scale that's a problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGgTy5YJ-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGgTy5YJ-g Like, "Every inch of the new park is covered in sponsor branding" is a problem, but "I had no idea that a store selling towels opened in our town" is also a problem. These are both advertising, at some point you cross from "I didn't know about that, thanks" to "Just fuck off already" and that's too much advertising. Dispepsi for example, the Negativland album, is premised on the idea that everybody on the entire planet already knows about Coca-Cola and Pepsi, so their continued advertising is entirely futile. Nobody who wants a brown fizzy beverage is unsure whether they could obtain such a thing or what it might be called. So all they're doing is annoying us.
- chicagojoe 2y ago
  The other purpose of the ad is to keep the product top of mind. Those bubbles-and-ice ads aren't to introduce you to the concept but to remind you that you want one - now.
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    Sure, there are a lot of potential rationales offered for more and more, and more advertising. But when I looked into it, awareness was literally the only one with clear statistical evidence that independent researchers had gone yeah, that actually works. If you don't tell any customers your product exists, that's definitely not going to help sell more. Story checks out. Beyond that? I haven't seen the evidence. Obviously the guy at the TV network is not going to tell Jim from Ad Co. that it's futile to advertise Pepsi because everybody knows about Pepsi. And Jim isn't going tell Pepsi's Head of Marketing that it's futile to spend money with Ad Co. because Pepsi makes up a noticeable part of Jim's annual sales bonus. The Head of Marketing would no longer have a job if they stopped advertising, so no fear they will spontaneously realise. All of them will prefer to make up stories for why it makes sense to spend more and more and more on advertising, because they all benefit. But does it actually work?
  - Steven420 2y ago
    That is completely true and quite effective. Not sure why you're getting down voted. It's time to do away with the down votes
- Krasnol 2y ago
  I already googled for towel shops. Just like everybody else would do. I had to accept the manipulated results and most probably even fell for it. So why would I need even more ads for the new towel store?
  - roenxi 2y ago
    The first practical answer is without ads there wouldn't be a Google. The reason the search index is commercially viable is because it shows ads. The second is maybe you don't know what a towel is, there are a lot born every minute. The third is maybe you won't think of buying a towel - even if you need it - without prompting which I suspect is the case for most people. I also don't understand the general hate some people have for websites that are commercially viable without charging an entrance fee. Ads are better than the next-best option.
    - Krasnol 2y ago
      What you actually miss here is the fact that we're getting MORE ads all the time. It doesn't stop because the shareholders demand more money. It's not about how google wouldn't be able to exist. They can surely exist as a search engine. It's not that expensive. It's about how google is getting worse and worse because of the greed in this sick system. This is what people hate. There were ads from the beginning on, but it was never so bad as it has become today. Besides that: advertising is stealing my attention. Not only on the internet (where I just use ublock) but everywhere else. It's a disease. It penetrates my brain. I never asked for this. I feel violated by this industry which single aim it is to do just that and as effective as possible. I despise it.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        > It's not about how google wouldn't be able to exist. They can surely exist as a search engine. It's not that expensive. How do you expect them to earn money? The reality of the situation is pretty clear on this one, it is ad-supported or irrelevance for search engines. We've been watching this market play out for more than 2 decades. > What you actually miss here is the fact that we're getting MORE ads all the time. I'm not missing it, I just don't see why you care. I can understand using an ad-blocker, but to get worked up because a site shows ads to support itself is entitled to the point where it is stupid. Ads mean that freeloaders get something good for free, and the people who pay obviously believe they got a valuable service from the ads, or they wouldn't have bought the advertised thing.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  > "I had no idea that a store selling towels opened in our town" is also a problem Is it a problem? Maybe in 1995 this would be a problem advertising could fix, but today it's either: a. I don't need towels so I don't care that this opened. b. I do need towels and I do a web search for stores that sell towels nearby - at which point I become aware. Advertising is inferior to an honest catalog of businesses and what they sell - i.e. Google Maps or web search. In the context of web search or business directories, advertising is "putting a finger on the scale" of normal discovery. It's fundamentally dishonest in my opinion.
  - BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
    I agree with this. Advertising as in "being findable" is helpful, advertising as in "shoving things down everyone's throat to make them buy things they didn't know they needed" is unsustainable, intrusive and unnecessarily overwhelming.
dazc 2y ago
Advertising worked OK when everyone understood what it was and how it was necessary to pay for free, or almost free, stuff. I can remember when our local paper used to sell out everywhere on a Thursday afternoon because that was the day when all the job ads were published. No one ever complained there were too many of these. Similarly on a Friday when all the houses for sale or rent were posted. As happened with other forms of cheap or free media such as regular mail, telephone calls and email, the returns for advertising eventually become a numbers game even when 99.9% of the audience hate them.
troyvit 2y ago
> Advertising needs to be purged, not embraced. I agree, but most people also also feel that content should be free. If content is free, but not ad supported, who pays the people to create it?
- wintermutestwin 2y ago
  Why is it that this community of innovators can’t fathom other ways to fund cool things besides the false dichotomy of customer pays vs we shove ads down customer throat? Some services seem like facebook and reddit seem ripe for a nonprofit model to use an example that doesn’t require any innovation. Maybe because y’all are focused on winning big with your options? Maybe that’s the root cause of enshitification?
  - troyvit 2y ago
    This innovator actually works for a nonprofit and guess what -- people don't want to pay for news, and those who did at one time are giving much less.[1] There are a few nonprofit models for social media, and they aren't making a dent in the big monsters. As far as I'm concerned, social media is where ads belong, but maybe that's because I despise it. The nonprofit model for content, my wheelhouse, is struggling mightily with this issue, but it all comes down to getting donations, government funding, or getting people to work for free. Even this list of "non-reformist reforms"[2] comes down to getting money from the government or consolidating into media co-ops. Public radio stations get a small amount of government funding as you might know, but a journalistic enterprise beholden to its government is probably actually worse than being beholden to advertisers. So, as a member of this community of innovators, what are your suggestions? [1] https://logan-gentry.medium.com/giving-was-down-in-2023-but-why-2e65b36cc57a https://logan-gentry.medium.com/giving-was-down-in-2023-but-... [2] https://lpeproject.org/blog/taking-media-out-of-the-market/ https://lpeproject.org/blog/taking-media-out-of-the-market/

by kibwen 2y ago

tialaramex 2y ago

Advertising is potentially useful, it's the scale that's a problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGgTy5YJ-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGgTy5YJ-g Like, "Every inch of the new park is covered in sponsor branding" is a problem, but "I had no idea that a store selling towels opened in our town" is also a problem. These are both advertising, at some point you cross from "I didn't know about that, thanks" to "Just fuck off already" and that's too much advertising. Dispepsi for example, the Negativland album, is premised on the idea that everybody on the entire planet already knows about Coca-Cola and Pepsi, so their continued advertising is entirely futile. Nobody who wants a brown fizzy beverage is unsure whether they could obtain such a thing or what it might be called. So all they're doing is annoying us.

chicagojoe 2y ago
The other purpose of the ad is to keep the product top of mind. Those bubbles-and-ice ads aren't to introduce you to the concept but to remind you that you want one - now.
- tialaramex 2y ago
  Sure, there are a lot of potential rationales offered for more and more, and more advertising. But when I looked into it, awareness was literally the only one with clear statistical evidence that independent researchers had gone yeah, that actually works. If you don't tell any customers your product exists, that's definitely not going to help sell more. Story checks out. Beyond that? I haven't seen the evidence. Obviously the guy at the TV network is not going to tell Jim from Ad Co. that it's futile to advertise Pepsi because everybody knows about Pepsi. And Jim isn't going tell Pepsi's Head of Marketing that it's futile to spend money with Ad Co. because Pepsi makes up a noticeable part of Jim's annual sales bonus. The Head of Marketing would no longer have a job if they stopped advertising, so no fear they will spontaneously realise. All of them will prefer to make up stories for why it makes sense to spend more and more and more on advertising, because they all benefit. But does it actually work?
- Steven420 2y ago
  That is completely true and quite effective. Not sure why you're getting down voted. It's time to do away with the down votes
Krasnol 2y ago
I already googled for towel shops. Just like everybody else would do. I had to accept the manipulated results and most probably even fell for it. So why would I need even more ads for the new towel store?
- roenxi 2y ago
  The first practical answer is without ads there wouldn't be a Google. The reason the search index is commercially viable is because it shows ads. The second is maybe you don't know what a towel is, there are a lot born every minute. The third is maybe you won't think of buying a towel - even if you need it - without prompting which I suspect is the case for most people. I also don't understand the general hate some people have for websites that are commercially viable without charging an entrance fee. Ads are better than the next-best option.
  - Krasnol 2y ago
    What you actually miss here is the fact that we're getting MORE ads all the time. It doesn't stop because the shareholders demand more money. It's not about how google wouldn't be able to exist. They can surely exist as a search engine. It's not that expensive. It's about how google is getting worse and worse because of the greed in this sick system. This is what people hate. There were ads from the beginning on, but it was never so bad as it has become today. Besides that: advertising is stealing my attention. Not only on the internet (where I just use ublock) but everywhere else. It's a disease. It penetrates my brain. I never asked for this. I feel violated by this industry which single aim it is to do just that and as effective as possible. I despise it.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      > It's not about how google wouldn't be able to exist. They can surely exist as a search engine. It's not that expensive. How do you expect them to earn money? The reality of the situation is pretty clear on this one, it is ad-supported or irrelevance for search engines. We've been watching this market play out for more than 2 decades. > What you actually miss here is the fact that we're getting MORE ads all the time. I'm not missing it, I just don't see why you care. I can understand using an ad-blocker, but to get worked up because a site shows ads to support itself is entitled to the point where it is stupid. Ads mean that freeloaders get something good for free, and the people who pay obviously believe they got a valuable service from the ads, or they wouldn't have bought the advertised thing.
AlexandrB 2y ago
> "I had no idea that a store selling towels opened in our town" is also a problem Is it a problem? Maybe in 1995 this would be a problem advertising could fix, but today it's either: a. I don't need towels so I don't care that this opened. b. I do need towels and I do a web search for stores that sell towels nearby - at which point I become aware. Advertising is inferior to an honest catalog of businesses and what they sell - i.e. Google Maps or web search. In the context of web search or business directories, advertising is "putting a finger on the scale" of normal discovery. It's fundamentally dishonest in my opinion.
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
  I agree with this. Advertising as in "being findable" is helpful, advertising as in "shoving things down everyone's throat to make them buy things they didn't know they needed" is unsustainable, intrusive and unnecessarily overwhelming.

dazc 2y ago

Advertising worked OK when everyone understood what it was and how it was necessary to pay for free, or almost free, stuff. I can remember when our local paper used to sell out everywhere on a Thursday afternoon because that was the day when all the job ads were published. No one ever complained there were too many of these. Similarly on a Friday when all the houses for sale or rent were posted. As happened with other forms of cheap or free media such as regular mail, telephone calls and email, the returns for advertising eventually become a numbers game even when 99.9% of the audience hate them.

troyvit 2y ago

> Advertising needs to be purged, not embraced. I agree, but most people also also feel that content should be free. If content is free, but not ad supported, who pays the people to create it?

wintermutestwin 2y ago
Why is it that this community of innovators can’t fathom other ways to fund cool things besides the false dichotomy of customer pays vs we shove ads down customer throat? Some services seem like facebook and reddit seem ripe for a nonprofit model to use an example that doesn’t require any innovation. Maybe because y’all are focused on winning big with your options? Maybe that’s the root cause of enshitification?
- troyvit 2y ago
  This innovator actually works for a nonprofit and guess what -- people don't want to pay for news, and those who did at one time are giving much less.[1] There are a few nonprofit models for social media, and they aren't making a dent in the big monsters. As far as I'm concerned, social media is where ads belong, but maybe that's because I despise it. The nonprofit model for content, my wheelhouse, is struggling mightily with this issue, but it all comes down to getting donations, government funding, or getting people to work for free. Even this list of "non-reformist reforms"[2] comes down to getting money from the government or consolidating into media co-ops. Public radio stations get a small amount of government funding as you might know, but a journalistic enterprise beholden to its government is probably actually worse than being beholden to advertisers. So, as a member of this community of innovators, what are your suggestions? [1] https://logan-gentry.medium.com/giving-was-down-in-2023-but-why-2e65b36cc57a https://logan-gentry.medium.com/giving-was-down-in-2023-but-... [2] https://lpeproject.org/blog/taking-media-out-of-the-market/ https://lpeproject.org/blog/taking-media-out-of-the-market/