4 ms·

Diversity cannot be based solely on the visual assortment of your characters, or checking all the boxes to make sure that everyone is included - that gets a sor

Diversity cannot be based solely on the visual assortment of your characters, or checking all the boxes to make sure that everyone is included - that gets a sort of representation but often so obviously forced, so cliche, one dimensional, characters that have been done so many times before, we all know exactly why they are there - to brag about the "diversity" I'm a gay man in my 30s - there wasn't really representation of me onscreen til recently, what was there was a stereotype that I saw repeatedly and really didn't do me any favors. Funny so many are mentioning Star Trek, I'm on a watch of the whole shows RN and I just got to Discovery - coming from Enterprise and after so many critics praised the diverse cast and LGBT characters, I was curious and expecting better than I'd seen Trek at least do before. Instead, Discovery is an example of exactly the kind of manufactured diversity I don't want to see, at all - the same predictable "one size fits all" lazy bs that is honestly almost worse than no representation at some point I'm on episode 6-7, maybe it gets better but so far such a predictable disappointment

selfmodruntime 2y ago
The stereotype is still as strong as ever. I do not feel represented at all by overly gay flamboyant men whose only personality trait seems to be that they happen to have sex with other men. The typical "gay voice" is also largely an American phenomenon. Most gay people are perfectly normal people and their sexuality isn't the thing that defines them. Hollywood hasn't received that message yet I think.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  That's the rub with stereotypes and film when they insist on a lack of subtly for audiences that apparently can't handle or notice it. Perhaps it's acceptable for sitcoms where the characters are intentionally superficial, but generally it represents a demographic poorly to attribute unflattering attributes to a group, be it the flamboyant gay man or the unlucky, weak man. Where I live in the US now, gay cis tend to be both widely-accepted and very common such that it's no longer a stressor in everyday situations. There are trans people including trans males, which are less common but exist in greater numbers with anxieties and reservations gay cis people had 20 years ago. Outside of the area, Christian white nationalist patriarchy is the norm.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    At least in Europe, I can't such I agree much with the narrative of christian nationalism with racial tendencies. The uncomfortable dislike I've experienced from christians does not compare in the slightest to the active and dangerous hate I've experienced from middle eastern individuals. I'll take the awkward German stare any day over threats of physical violence. My unfavorable viewpoint is that over-the-top stereotypes only serve to induce more nonacceptance.
    - NemoNobody 2y ago
      I don't kno... where I live the Christians have completely won, there are very, very few identifiable queer people here. Instead, men that would otherwise be Gay - prolly anywhere else in the world, live 1950s era queer lives here, complete with the wife, kids and secret sex with men. If I go on sniffies or Grindr rn, the majority of ppl will be married men, some go as far as to say shit like, " married, straight, cis man, looking for the same" I run into these men, they kno I kno what they are - most can't look me in the eye after they realize I'm not one of the cool ones that will help them cheat on their wife. I'd rather be beat up 1000 times than have down to me whatever their church did to them to make them all right living such a life
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
There's a persistent, pervasive conflation between diversity of identity and viewpoint. I find that the modern era doesn't tolerate diversity of viewpoint except to fall under one of 2 nearly hermetically-sealed, tribal camps in their pre-approved flavor of rigid orthodoxy. As such the people who believe themselves to be "liberal" in the modern era appear to convey illiberal, intolerant, and inconsistent behaviors they supposedly oppose in the other camp. It could also be an extension of US celebrity culture and hyperindividualism with the evolution of social media. Celebrating diversity as a central feature while trying to shoehorn in substance as an afterthought destroys the credibility of both. Equality/equity for all means not going off the rails with selective exaltation. Only the DEI cult wants a DEI movie category when they turn on Netflix. In other societies where discrimination appears rarer and tolerance is greater, I notice different interaction patterns. For example, I used to have a startup in the UK that inherited staff from a partner's company. We (the managing directors) had to give a little side eye to the IT manager (Argentine) and one of the other managers (African) because they would tease each other with the most racist slurs imaginable as morning daily greetings in jest. It was only okay so long as no customers or outsiders would hear, and only if everyone else around was genuinely not bothered (mostly sales people with thick skins, the sales manager was a middle-aged woman who was absolutely riotously-hilarious at the pub). I appreciated that they were fond of each other, but there's a balance to walk between personal freedoms and professionalism at work. These managers understood contextual appropriateness and that no identities were material, it was their work that mattered. Perhaps diversity of identity should be not be a central feature to be either celebrated or discriminated against, but acknowledged nonchalantly, make jokes about, and not make such a fuss about.
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  You are touching on "the button" rn tbh - Diversity AS identity seems to be the new thing. Nothing good can come from establishing an identify around the ways you are different from "the majority" - it's all external stuff, like fundamentally the wrong foundational stuff I get downvoted all the time on Gay subs bc I frequently advocate we all just call ourselves queer and drop the divisive lettering system based on our sexual appetites that we then have to explain to strangers - or worse, family. I thought I was brilliant til I realized that's what they want, they want to be ACE, asked by Grandma what that means and then to have to explain that - THAT is their chosen identity.
aredox 2y ago
> The influence of the Dana Scully character on my generation of girls is known as the Scully Effect. We women who frequently watched The X-Files as teenagers were more than 50% more likely to study a STEM field in college than women who didn’t watch. (STEM stands for science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.) Nearly two-thirds of women currently working in STEM cited Scully as a major influence on their decision to pursue a STEM career. Two-thirds of women said Scully increased their belief in the importance of STEM, even if they did not pursue careers in a STEM field. Nine in ten women claimed Scully was a positive role model for girls. But hey, NemoNobody says we can't do that, because it's "bad", and is upvoted best comment on this thread, so...
- NemoNobody 2y ago
  I do apologize - I do not mean to downplay Scully, rather I don't have Scully and only now realized that. This all got wrapped up in my very recent disappointment with Star Trek and I got caught up with that. I think the Scully effect has proven quite powerful - with great power come great responsibility. Perhaps, kids don't need their "Scully" to be a character that just checks all the right boxes but actually do benefit quite well from a strong relatable character that doesn't conform so much to society as society conforms to the character - like Scully. Discovery's diversity is essentially a snapshot of exactly what we think diversity ought to look like in whatever year it was made - it's already feeling dated bc forced sh*t like that never holds up A Scully tho - remakes the mold. I don't think we'll see a trans character that's breaking any molds from Hollywood rn, for example. That's all Im saying.
  - aredox 2y ago
    This isn't something new right now. Tokenism is there - and has been decried non-stop - since the 60's. The problem is not inserting minorities, it's a whole entertainment industry that is still hardly able to make them whole characters despite decades (!) of pointing out the problem. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/america-ferrera-breaks-down-the-difference-between-tokenism-and-true-diversity_n_573f1a92e4b045cc9a70b132 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/america-ferrera-breaks-down-t...
  - 2y ago
NemoNobody 2y ago
I didn't mean to hijack the conversation - I started pondering the substantial impact Scully has had on American society. As a role model to young girls - absolutely, as pointed out by this article. She had a pretty profound but more immeasurable effect on male/female dynamics in general. The famous duo, she is so obviously the smart one and he obviously a typical alpha male - needs to be in charge, so she "let's him think he is" so to say, that whole schtick is everywhere now, advertising really ran with this for example Anyways, I was literally going to talk about that when I realized that I think my Scully is Jack from Will and Grace... not bc I'm anything like him or kno anyone that is but bc he at least seemed happy most of the time Out of all the queers I can recall on TV from my youth he is the one I'd tell my son to be like, if I had one.
- justinclift 2y ago
  > he obviously a typical alpha male You may be the first person in history to describe Mulder that way. :)
- whythre 2y ago
  What? Mulder is not a typical alpha male, he is a handsome outsider UFO nerd. Mulder rarely comes out on top in any physical altercations and in his interactions with other law enforcement he does not come off as ‘alpha’ at all.

selfmodruntime 2y ago

The stereotype is still as strong as ever. I do not feel represented at all by overly gay flamboyant men whose only personality trait seems to be that they happen to have sex with other men. The typical "gay voice" is also largely an American phenomenon. Most gay people are perfectly normal people and their sexuality isn't the thing that defines them. Hollywood hasn't received that message yet I think.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
That's the rub with stereotypes and film when they insist on a lack of subtly for audiences that apparently can't handle or notice it. Perhaps it's acceptable for sitcoms where the characters are intentionally superficial, but generally it represents a demographic poorly to attribute unflattering attributes to a group, be it the flamboyant gay man or the unlucky, weak man. Where I live in the US now, gay cis tend to be both widely-accepted and very common such that it's no longer a stressor in everyday situations. There are trans people including trans males, which are less common but exist in greater numbers with anxieties and reservations gay cis people had 20 years ago. Outside of the area, Christian white nationalist patriarchy is the norm.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  At least in Europe, I can't such I agree much with the narrative of christian nationalism with racial tendencies. The uncomfortable dislike I've experienced from christians does not compare in the slightest to the active and dangerous hate I've experienced from middle eastern individuals. I'll take the awkward German stare any day over threats of physical violence. My unfavorable viewpoint is that over-the-top stereotypes only serve to induce more nonacceptance.
  - NemoNobody 2y ago
    I don't kno... where I live the Christians have completely won, there are very, very few identifiable queer people here. Instead, men that would otherwise be Gay - prolly anywhere else in the world, live 1950s era queer lives here, complete with the wife, kids and secret sex with men. If I go on sniffies or Grindr rn, the majority of ppl will be married men, some go as far as to say shit like, " married, straight, cis man, looking for the same" I run into these men, they kno I kno what they are - most can't look me in the eye after they realize I'm not one of the cool ones that will help them cheat on their wife. I'd rather be beat up 1000 times than have down to me whatever their church did to them to make them all right living such a life

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

There's a persistent, pervasive conflation between diversity of identity and viewpoint. I find that the modern era doesn't tolerate diversity of viewpoint except to fall under one of 2 nearly hermetically-sealed, tribal camps in their pre-approved flavor of rigid orthodoxy. As such the people who believe themselves to be "liberal" in the modern era appear to convey illiberal, intolerant, and inconsistent behaviors they supposedly oppose in the other camp. It could also be an extension of US celebrity culture and hyperindividualism with the evolution of social media. Celebrating diversity as a central feature while trying to shoehorn in substance as an afterthought destroys the credibility of both. Equality/equity for all means not going off the rails with selective exaltation. Only the DEI cult wants a DEI movie category when they turn on Netflix. In other societies where discrimination appears rarer and tolerance is greater, I notice different interaction patterns. For example, I used to have a startup in the UK that inherited staff from a partner's company. We (the managing directors) had to give a little side eye to the IT manager (Argentine) and one of the other managers (African) because they would tease each other with the most racist slurs imaginable as morning daily greetings in jest. It was only okay so long as no customers or outsiders would hear, and only if everyone else around was genuinely not bothered (mostly sales people with thick skins, the sales manager was a middle-aged woman who was absolutely riotously-hilarious at the pub). I appreciated that they were fond of each other, but there's a balance to walk between personal freedoms and professionalism at work. These managers understood contextual appropriateness and that no identities were material, it was their work that mattered. Perhaps diversity of identity should be not be a central feature to be either celebrated or discriminated against, but acknowledged nonchalantly, make jokes about, and not make such a fuss about.

NemoNobody 2y ago
You are touching on "the button" rn tbh - Diversity AS identity seems to be the new thing. Nothing good can come from establishing an identify around the ways you are different from "the majority" - it's all external stuff, like fundamentally the wrong foundational stuff I get downvoted all the time on Gay subs bc I frequently advocate we all just call ourselves queer and drop the divisive lettering system based on our sexual appetites that we then have to explain to strangers - or worse, family. I thought I was brilliant til I realized that's what they want, they want to be ACE, asked by Grandma what that means and then to have to explain that - THAT is their chosen identity.

aredox 2y ago

> The influence of the Dana Scully character on my generation of girls is known as the Scully Effect. We women who frequently watched The X-Files as teenagers were more than 50% more likely to study a STEM field in college than women who didn’t watch. (STEM stands for science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.) Nearly two-thirds of women currently working in STEM cited Scully as a major influence on their decision to pursue a STEM career. Two-thirds of women said Scully increased their belief in the importance of STEM, even if they did not pursue careers in a STEM field. Nine in ten women claimed Scully was a positive role model for girls. But hey, NemoNobody says we can't do that, because it's "bad", and is upvoted best comment on this thread, so...

NemoNobody 2y ago
I do apologize - I do not mean to downplay Scully, rather I don't have Scully and only now realized that. This all got wrapped up in my very recent disappointment with Star Trek and I got caught up with that. I think the Scully effect has proven quite powerful - with great power come great responsibility. Perhaps, kids don't need their "Scully" to be a character that just checks all the right boxes but actually do benefit quite well from a strong relatable character that doesn't conform so much to society as society conforms to the character - like Scully. Discovery's diversity is essentially a snapshot of exactly what we think diversity ought to look like in whatever year it was made - it's already feeling dated bc forced sh*t like that never holds up A Scully tho - remakes the mold. I don't think we'll see a trans character that's breaking any molds from Hollywood rn, for example. That's all Im saying.
- aredox 2y ago
  This isn't something new right now. Tokenism is there - and has been decried non-stop - since the 60's. The problem is not inserting minorities, it's a whole entertainment industry that is still hardly able to make them whole characters despite decades (!) of pointing out the problem. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/america-ferrera-breaks-down-the-difference-between-tokenism-and-true-diversity_n_573f1a92e4b045cc9a70b132 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/america-ferrera-breaks-down-t...
- 2y ago

NemoNobody 2y ago

I didn't mean to hijack the conversation - I started pondering the substantial impact Scully has had on American society. As a role model to young girls - absolutely, as pointed out by this article. She had a pretty profound but more immeasurable effect on male/female dynamics in general. The famous duo, she is so obviously the smart one and he obviously a typical alpha male - needs to be in charge, so she "let's him think he is" so to say, that whole schtick is everywhere now, advertising really ran with this for example Anyways, I was literally going to talk about that when I realized that I think my Scully is Jack from Will and Grace... not bc I'm anything like him or kno anyone that is but bc he at least seemed happy most of the time Out of all the queers I can recall on TV from my youth he is the one I'd tell my son to be like, if I had one.

justinclift 2y ago
> he obviously a typical alpha male You may be the first person in history to describe Mulder that way. :)
whythre 2y ago
What? Mulder is not a typical alpha male, he is a handsome outsider UFO nerd. Mulder rarely comes out on top in any physical altercations and in his interactions with other law enforcement he does not come off as ‘alpha’ at all.