3 ms·

hey old people. something in open source history I don't recall very well and would appreciate links of it is already documented... kde was nice but not "open

hey old people. something in open source history I don't recall very well and would appreciate links of it is already documented... kde was nice but not "open source" so gtk and gnome came and drove lots of contributors. i think it was around kde3... then Ubuntu and later google dumped lots of money on gnome and some designers just stole the leadership it became a race to the bottom with copying all bad ideas from apple UX. then Ubuntu parted ways and did it's own thing. then they merged and rewrote the thing in JavaScript and release without even a settings application working... and then contributors mostly moved back to kde and 5 was great. now 6 is polishing everything and building on dbus everywhere and designers already started the UX capture but doesn't seem it is going anywhere. anyway, i don't have much reference material for the time most contributors moved from kde to gnome in the name of GPL (noble goal that wasn't used since distros didn't abandon the broken release for the mint fork when they should have)

nottorp 2y ago
Don't know about designers but: KDE is based on Qt which was a commercial library back then. It was licensed for free under the GPL (not LGPL!) or you could buy a commercial license from Trolltech. That caused all kinds of licensing problems (not only for commercial applications, but if you did a Qt GUI app your only choice was the GPL, no other license) which drove people towards gtk. That's ancient history, but the Qt situation isn't much better now. First Nokia bought Qt and relicensed it as LGPL, because they needed it to be used by as many people as possible to gain users for their mobile platform. Then Nokia couldn't decide what mobile platform to use, then Elop happened and Nokia basically died. Today Qt is still partially LGPL but was spinned off as Digia that is trying very hard to make money out of it. To the point of threats on the page that lets you download the LGPL version, commercial only plugins, and unaffordable pricing for small companies and hobbyists. Agree that gnome still looks like Apple envy.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  the license issue was that qt want gpl enough because of the dual license, right? i could find a good write up of the problem then.
- Maakuth 2y ago
  Digia actually spun it off and Qt again is an independent publicly traded company. I suppose KDE community is the place to start looking for Qt open source resources.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    > Qt again is an independent publicly traded company. Qt was never an independent publicly traded company before. Independent maybe, but not publicly traded. It was technically publicly traded while being a Nokia asset, but not independent :) Regardless of the name (a Meta by any other name would still stink of Facebook, an Alphabet by any other name would still stink of Google), does their site still look like you'd better hire a lawyer before you touch their intellectual property?
    - Maakuth 2y ago
      Trolltech, whose main product Qt was, was listed in Oslo stock exchange from 2006 to the Nokia acquistion of 2008.
      - nottorp 2y ago
        Whoa, I missed that. I was still doing some Qt work back then...
- AnonymousPlanet 2y ago
  > Agree that gnome still looks like Apple envy. As opposed to Windows envy that apparently drives pretty much all the others, including every single version of KDE.
  - Jnr 2y ago
    I sometimes test new Wayland features in KDE since they tend to be more on the bleeding edge when it comes to Wayland protocol support, but visuals and UX are stuck in Windows XP times and I don't enjoy it at all. Some 15 years ago Gnome rewrote things from scratch and that made people angry, but looking back at it now, it seems like it was worth it. I use both MacOS and Gnome, and I can easily say that Linux with Gnome is years ahead of MacOS. Nothing beats the polish of Gnome and it's extensions. It is less cluttered, snappy and doesn't get in the way. The only thing keeping Gnome back is it's developer documentation. It is hard to find good detailed information about available APIs, everything is hidden somewhere deep in C code which is not searchable without Gnome Gitea account. If they want to see the year of the Linux desktop having Gnome at the center of it, they have to improve in the developer documentation area a lot.
  - p_l 2y ago
    KDE follows established UX patterns, some of which predate Windows 95 in fact but come from another once famous DE that had three letter name ;)
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  > then Elop happened and Nokia basically died No offense, but Nokia was dying long before Elop joined. He just made sure to burry it in Microsoft's back yard. By 2008 it was clear iOS and Android will be the dominant platforms, and Elop joined Nokia towards the end of 2010 when it was already a sinking ship. Even if Elop were to be the most competent CEO in the world he could not save Nokia from its inevitable downfall at the hands of Apple and Google, no matter what he did with Symbian or MeeGo or whatever Linux based touch OS they had in their toybox. The world had already standardized on iOS and Android so Nokia coming to the market with a new touch OS platform after 2011 and convincing users and developers to jump ship from Android and iOS, would have failed to get traction either way, same how Windows Mobile failed.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    "Then Nokia couldn't decide what mobile platform to use" I believe you missed that part.
badsectoracula 2y ago
According to Wikipedia, Qt was open source since Qt 2.0 with QPL and in Qt 2.2 it was released under GPL because their custom QPL was not compatible with GPL. This was in 2000, so during KDE2 times (KDE3 was released in 2002). AFAICT technically it was only KDE1 that relied on non-opensource Qt.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  ah! QPL that's it thanks.
anthk 2y ago
When QT arrived Ubuntu wasn't even planned.

nottorp 2y ago

Don't know about designers but: KDE is based on Qt which was a commercial library back then. It was licensed for free under the GPL (not LGPL!) or you could buy a commercial license from Trolltech. That caused all kinds of licensing problems (not only for commercial applications, but if you did a Qt GUI app your only choice was the GPL, no other license) which drove people towards gtk. That's ancient history, but the Qt situation isn't much better now. First Nokia bought Qt and relicensed it as LGPL, because they needed it to be used by as many people as possible to gain users for their mobile platform. Then Nokia couldn't decide what mobile platform to use, then Elop happened and Nokia basically died. Today Qt is still partially LGPL but was spinned off as Digia that is trying very hard to make money out of it. To the point of threats on the page that lets you download the LGPL version, commercial only plugins, and unaffordable pricing for small companies and hobbyists. Agree that gnome still looks like Apple envy.

1oooqooq 2y ago
the license issue was that qt want gpl enough because of the dual license, right? i could find a good write up of the problem then.
Maakuth 2y ago
Digia actually spun it off and Qt again is an independent publicly traded company. I suppose KDE community is the place to start looking for Qt open source resources.
- nottorp 2y ago
  > Qt again is an independent publicly traded company. Qt was never an independent publicly traded company before. Independent maybe, but not publicly traded. It was technically publicly traded while being a Nokia asset, but not independent :) Regardless of the name (a Meta by any other name would still stink of Facebook, an Alphabet by any other name would still stink of Google), does their site still look like you'd better hire a lawyer before you touch their intellectual property?
  - Maakuth 2y ago
    Trolltech, whose main product Qt was, was listed in Oslo stock exchange from 2006 to the Nokia acquistion of 2008.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      Whoa, I missed that. I was still doing some Qt work back then...
AnonymousPlanet 2y ago
> Agree that gnome still looks like Apple envy. As opposed to Windows envy that apparently drives pretty much all the others, including every single version of KDE.
- Jnr 2y ago
  I sometimes test new Wayland features in KDE since they tend to be more on the bleeding edge when it comes to Wayland protocol support, but visuals and UX are stuck in Windows XP times and I don't enjoy it at all. Some 15 years ago Gnome rewrote things from scratch and that made people angry, but looking back at it now, it seems like it was worth it. I use both MacOS and Gnome, and I can easily say that Linux with Gnome is years ahead of MacOS. Nothing beats the polish of Gnome and it's extensions. It is less cluttered, snappy and doesn't get in the way. The only thing keeping Gnome back is it's developer documentation. It is hard to find good detailed information about available APIs, everything is hidden somewhere deep in C code which is not searchable without Gnome Gitea account. If they want to see the year of the Linux desktop having Gnome at the center of it, they have to improve in the developer documentation area a lot.
- p_l 2y ago
  KDE follows established UX patterns, some of which predate Windows 95 in fact but come from another once famous DE that had three letter name ;)
Rinzler89 2y ago
> then Elop happened and Nokia basically died No offense, but Nokia was dying long before Elop joined. He just made sure to burry it in Microsoft's back yard. By 2008 it was clear iOS and Android will be the dominant platforms, and Elop joined Nokia towards the end of 2010 when it was already a sinking ship. Even if Elop were to be the most competent CEO in the world he could not save Nokia from its inevitable downfall at the hands of Apple and Google, no matter what he did with Symbian or MeeGo or whatever Linux based touch OS they had in their toybox. The world had already standardized on iOS and Android so Nokia coming to the market with a new touch OS platform after 2011 and convincing users and developers to jump ship from Android and iOS, would have failed to get traction either way, same how Windows Mobile failed.
- nottorp 2y ago
  "Then Nokia couldn't decide what mobile platform to use" I believe you missed that part.

badsectoracula 2y ago

According to Wikipedia, Qt was open source since Qt 2.0 with QPL and in Qt 2.2 it was released under GPL because their custom QPL was not compatible with GPL. This was in 2000, so during KDE2 times (KDE3 was released in 2002). AFAICT technically it was only KDE1 that relied on non-opensource Qt.

1oooqooq 2y ago
ah! QPL that's it thanks.

anthk 2y ago

When QT arrived Ubuntu wasn't even planned.