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I find it odd that everyone here is talking about productivity. Although I guess it's to be expected since posts about increasing productivity are popular in HN

I find it odd that everyone here is talking about productivity. Although I guess it's to be expected since posts about increasing productivity are popular in HN; lots of people here focusing on their careers I suppose. Personally I find we work way too many hours. We spend the good part of 5 days a week (if we're lucky) at work, often literally all the daylight hours, at least in winter. I have to take my daughter very early in the morning to the nursery, then I can't see her until the evening. I want to believe that future generations will look back and find this unconceivable, and I hope AI shows us the way.

t-writescode 2y ago
I think you're right - the average person absolutely works more hours than is healthy or most beneficial to the true, human experience. I would bet many people agree with you, too! Even many people in these threads. I think what you may be seeing (I'm speaking for myself, I suppose?) is people who've thought about it for a long while, and we have to think about it in ways we can introduce and fight for that stance with our bosses, or with our shareholders, etc, since those are the people we have to convince, not the people in the trenches doing the work. For myself, I have to operate as both my boss - trying to make enough money to continue or elevate my desired way of life - and myself the person - trying to live life to the most joyful and fullest.
globular-toast 2y ago
People spend all their lives doing pointless work, accumulating wealth, then have nothing to spend it on so buy something like a car they don't need (like an SUV). It's odd there aren't more people questioning this. Wouldn't they rather enjoy their lives while they're young and not worry about having tons of disposable income when they're old? I guess there's something about security that drives people to the latter. Also I feel like there's an addiction and/or conditioning element to it. I think people are scared of what will happen if certain people (thick people) no longer have to work. What will they do during the day etc?
- card_zero 2y ago
  Henry Ford claimed his motivation for instituting the five-day week was so that people would want to go out driving on their newly available Saturdays, and buy a Ford for their leisure time. Which is some weird voodoo when you think about it. Produce extreme volumes, lower margins, lower production (per worker) and increase demand - huh?
- ornornor 2y ago
  > It's odd there aren't more people questioning this. I’ve been questioning this for a long time. It’s not an enviable position: it’s isolating (very few people understand), it’s very hard to keep any kind of salaried position (since you’re not a devoted doormat), and it’s mentally challenging because you can’t ever really feel safe nor fit in.
- sumedh 2y ago
  > not worry about having tons of disposable income when they're old? Who is going to take care of you if you are sick?
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    Well it won't be your SUV.
  - Lord-Jobo 2y ago
    It won't be my kids even if I have them; they won't have the money to take care of me if wealth inequality in my country doesn't improve dramatically and rapidly
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    There might be nobody, regardless of what you do.
lm28469 2y ago
It's so internalised that people gatekeep working long and hard... I assume the "commute -> work -> chill -> sleep" cycle is doing a lot of work, you basically have no time to even think about what you're doing. Add some kids, a mortgage, health issues, it's the perfect cocktail. The "work -> vacation" cycle is also a good one, you can rationalise wasting 3-6 months in a work you don't enjoy to have a few weeks of peace (and spend all your money so you have a "good" reason to go back to work) In a way it's also more pleasing to be fully invested in the rat race, once you start to want get out of it you'll hate every single second of your work week wondering where we as a specie fucked up so bad
bPspGiJT8Y 2y ago
I'd like to believe this too, but given that medieval peasants and antique slaves worked more or less the same hours as we do I'm quite pessimistic. Whenever we automate something they just come up with a new bullshit job that adds nothing to the standards of living, instead of reducing the workload for everyone.
- kortilla 2y ago
  The standards of living are far better now than they were 80 years ago.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    But nowhere close to as good as they hypothetically should be given the explosion in productivity.
  - Drakim 2y ago
    Imagine if the standards of living goes up even more, we have x50 better medicine, huge houses for everybody, fine silken clothes, wall-sized TVs, and gourmet truffle soup every day of the week. But everybody is still working long hours, and only get to see their kids in the morning and a few hours before bedtime. But no worries, even more improvements are on the horizon. Within 20 years, you'll get all that, but it's gold plated, and encrusted with diamonds too. People live until they are 200, houses rotate to always face the sun, and TVs are now so big they wrap 360 degrees around the entire room's walls. But you still gotta spend most of your waking hours in an office, copying numbers from one excel to another. Is that really that good of an improvement? Do we measure quality of living purely in material wealth, and not in the time we get to spend with loved ones, or our passions? In the distant past, a huge proportion of our lives was spent just making sure you had food to survive on. The part where we "spend a huge portion of our lives" seems to stick, even though food is no longer scarce.
    - voisin 2y ago
      I don’t disagree with your statements, but anyone at anytime can choose to opt for more time and less gold plating. There are lots of people making these choices - check out the r/FIRE, r/LeanFIRE, r/FatFIRE communities on Reddit. Check out the book “Your Money or Your Life” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78428.Your_Money_or_Your_Life https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78428.Your_Money_or_Your...
ratmeadow 2y ago
Agreed, I find it astounding how so many people seem to be ok with devoting almost all their useful hours of life to work (although maybe they aren't ok but cope / convince themselves somehow). My weekday: get up and immediately go to work, come home, have about 2 -3 hours spare time, sleep, repeat. In that 2-3 hours I'm supposed to source healthy food, exercise, contact family, maintain friendships, maintain a romantic relationship, do laundry, keep the house clean, volunteer / contribute to society, meditate, read, do endless life admin, plan for the future, and finally relax. Then on the weekend, at least 1 day catching up on all the garbage that inevitably couldn't be done during the week. And maybe I'm left with 1 day out of 7 to do things I actually want to do (if I have the energy left). And let's not even discuss the range of crap tasks that must be done during the 0 business hours I have free: posting mail, going to the doctor, getting an electrician or plumber, contacting the real estate agent, contacting any business really. Lucky I can work remotely or else do any of these I need to take half a day off work. It's no wonder people have trouble with anxiety and sleep in modern times. There's literally not enough fucking time in the day to do everything which needs to be done. Even if you try to minimise and optimise every part of your life, you still barely have enough time to enjoy yourself. And we are living this life for what exactly? So in 50 years I still won't own a home and the environment will be irreparably destroyed?
- westmeal 2y ago
  Yeah it sucks.
- lotsoweiners 2y ago
  How many hours a day are you working and what kind of commute do you have? Just curious how that math works. Me personally I get up at 6:30, start work at 8 (from home), work until 4:30 usually and go to bed at 11:30-12.
fennecfoxy 2y ago
4 day work week? Sure! And if the rich weren't allowed to weasel and corrupt their ways into 0% tax rates it'd be even better!
sylvainr65 2y ago
This is a cultural thing, I think. I'm proud to work more hours than my boss expects. My relative never brag about the number of days off they have, but will quickly tell you that they only took one week off last year. The expected reaction is: wow, you're a great worker.

t-writescode 2y ago

I think you're right - the average person absolutely works more hours than is healthy or most beneficial to the true, human experience. I would bet many people agree with you, too! Even many people in these threads. I think what you may be seeing (I'm speaking for myself, I suppose?) is people who've thought about it for a long while, and we have to think about it in ways we can introduce and fight for that stance with our bosses, or with our shareholders, etc, since those are the people we have to convince, not the people in the trenches doing the work. For myself, I have to operate as both my boss - trying to make enough money to continue or elevate my desired way of life - and myself the person - trying to live life to the most joyful and fullest.

globular-toast 2y ago

People spend all their lives doing pointless work, accumulating wealth, then have nothing to spend it on so buy something like a car they don't need (like an SUV). It's odd there aren't more people questioning this. Wouldn't they rather enjoy their lives while they're young and not worry about having tons of disposable income when they're old? I guess there's something about security that drives people to the latter. Also I feel like there's an addiction and/or conditioning element to it. I think people are scared of what will happen if certain people (thick people) no longer have to work. What will they do during the day etc?

card_zero 2y ago
Henry Ford claimed his motivation for instituting the five-day week was so that people would want to go out driving on their newly available Saturdays, and buy a Ford for their leisure time. Which is some weird voodoo when you think about it. Produce extreme volumes, lower margins, lower production (per worker) and increase demand - huh?
ornornor 2y ago
> It's odd there aren't more people questioning this. I’ve been questioning this for a long time. It’s not an enviable position: it’s isolating (very few people understand), it’s very hard to keep any kind of salaried position (since you’re not a devoted doormat), and it’s mentally challenging because you can’t ever really feel safe nor fit in.
sumedh 2y ago
> not worry about having tons of disposable income when they're old? Who is going to take care of you if you are sick?
- globular-toast 2y ago
  Well it won't be your SUV.
- Lord-Jobo 2y ago
  It won't be my kids even if I have them; they won't have the money to take care of me if wealth inequality in my country doesn't improve dramatically and rapidly
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  There might be nobody, regardless of what you do.

lm28469 2y ago

It's so internalised that people gatekeep working long and hard... I assume the "commute -> work -> chill -> sleep" cycle is doing a lot of work, you basically have no time to even think about what you're doing. Add some kids, a mortgage, health issues, it's the perfect cocktail. The "work -> vacation" cycle is also a good one, you can rationalise wasting 3-6 months in a work you don't enjoy to have a few weeks of peace (and spend all your money so you have a "good" reason to go back to work) In a way it's also more pleasing to be fully invested in the rat race, once you start to want get out of it you'll hate every single second of your work week wondering where we as a specie fucked up so bad

bPspGiJT8Y 2y ago

I'd like to believe this too, but given that medieval peasants and antique slaves worked more or less the same hours as we do I'm quite pessimistic. Whenever we automate something they just come up with a new bullshit job that adds nothing to the standards of living, instead of reducing the workload for everyone.

kortilla 2y ago
The standards of living are far better now than they were 80 years ago.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  But nowhere close to as good as they hypothetically should be given the explosion in productivity.
- Drakim 2y ago
  Imagine if the standards of living goes up even more, we have x50 better medicine, huge houses for everybody, fine silken clothes, wall-sized TVs, and gourmet truffle soup every day of the week. But everybody is still working long hours, and only get to see their kids in the morning and a few hours before bedtime. But no worries, even more improvements are on the horizon. Within 20 years, you'll get all that, but it's gold plated, and encrusted with diamonds too. People live until they are 200, houses rotate to always face the sun, and TVs are now so big they wrap 360 degrees around the entire room's walls. But you still gotta spend most of your waking hours in an office, copying numbers from one excel to another. Is that really that good of an improvement? Do we measure quality of living purely in material wealth, and not in the time we get to spend with loved ones, or our passions? In the distant past, a huge proportion of our lives was spent just making sure you had food to survive on. The part where we "spend a huge portion of our lives" seems to stick, even though food is no longer scarce.
  - voisin 2y ago
    I don’t disagree with your statements, but anyone at anytime can choose to opt for more time and less gold plating. There are lots of people making these choices - check out the r/FIRE, r/LeanFIRE, r/FatFIRE communities on Reddit. Check out the book “Your Money or Your Life” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78428.Your_Money_or_Your_Life https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78428.Your_Money_or_Your...

ratmeadow 2y ago

Agreed, I find it astounding how so many people seem to be ok with devoting almost all their useful hours of life to work (although maybe they aren't ok but cope / convince themselves somehow). My weekday: get up and immediately go to work, come home, have about 2 -3 hours spare time, sleep, repeat. In that 2-3 hours I'm supposed to source healthy food, exercise, contact family, maintain friendships, maintain a romantic relationship, do laundry, keep the house clean, volunteer / contribute to society, meditate, read, do endless life admin, plan for the future, and finally relax. Then on the weekend, at least 1 day catching up on all the garbage that inevitably couldn't be done during the week. And maybe I'm left with 1 day out of 7 to do things I actually want to do (if I have the energy left). And let's not even discuss the range of crap tasks that must be done during the 0 business hours I have free: posting mail, going to the doctor, getting an electrician or plumber, contacting the real estate agent, contacting any business really. Lucky I can work remotely or else do any of these I need to take half a day off work. It's no wonder people have trouble with anxiety and sleep in modern times. There's literally not enough fucking time in the day to do everything which needs to be done. Even if you try to minimise and optimise every part of your life, you still barely have enough time to enjoy yourself. And we are living this life for what exactly? So in 50 years I still won't own a home and the environment will be irreparably destroyed?

westmeal 2y ago
Yeah it sucks.
lotsoweiners 2y ago
How many hours a day are you working and what kind of commute do you have? Just curious how that math works. Me personally I get up at 6:30, start work at 8 (from home), work until 4:30 usually and go to bed at 11:30-12.

fennecfoxy 2y ago

4 day work week? Sure! And if the rich weren't allowed to weasel and corrupt their ways into 0% tax rates it'd be even better!

sylvainr65 2y ago

This is a cultural thing, I think. I'm proud to work more hours than my boss expects. My relative never brag about the number of days off they have, but will quickly tell you that they only took one week off last year. The expected reaction is: wow, you're a great worker.