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"make sure your manager likes you" This is always the best advice I've found. And I've also found that if your manager likes you, lots of other things just wor

"make sure your manager likes you" This is always the best advice I've found. And I've also found that if your manager likes you, lots of other things just work out.

barrenko 2y ago
it's pretty goddamn stupid and seems to need constant reiteration for some people (like me!!!) but if you don't feel a cultural fit (from you as an employee point of view) - DON'T TAKE THE JOB
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  With the current market, I wish I had the power to refuse a job in lieu of a better culture fit But alas.
- Karellen 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ebiester 2y ago
    I am not the parent poster, but if we change the definition of "cultural fit," I would like to know if that changes your opinion. (Note that I am not cis-het.) My definition of culture talks about the working values and processes in a company. Some engineers want to be given full problems and be left alone to solve them. Some engineers want to be given specifications on what to build and just turn to code. Some engineers don't work well in an org without robust automated tests. Others are fine to leave it to QA and toss it over. Some really love agile environments, and some hate them. Some like large organizations where you can be a deep expert in a small piece, and some prefer to be a generalist getting software off the ground. People have different preferences regarding async communications versus meetings. And even more fundamentally, some people want to go home at the end of the day and forget about work while others want to feel like they're in something so important that they can obsess over. (Most of us are a bit in the middle, but both extremes there exist.) Culture fit isn't (or shouldn't be) if people like to go drinking at the end of the shift, or if they like to talk about sci-fi or if you fit into the top end of the kyriarchy. (And if that is part of a company's cultural fit, it's going to be toxic in other ways, but as you say, widely marginalized groups and cultures are going to be affected much more here.)
    - Karellen 2y ago
      > My definition of culture talks about the working values and processes in a company. Yeah, that does change it. And while that's certainly a reasonable definition of "cultural fit", I don't think it's been the predominant meaning historically. As far as I'm aware, "cultural fit" has often been a tool of exclusion to e.g. justify not hiring a woman because they wouldn't be a good cultural fit in a place where all the guys talk about women as sex objects, or not hiring someone who's gay as they wouldn't be a good cultural fit where everyone makes fun of the homos, etc... But it's more subtle than that. If all the devs in a team grew up watching a bunch of white middle-class sitcoms as kids (e.g. Friends, or whatever the early-'00s equivalent would be for junior devs these days) and those are their cultural touchstones, then someone who grew up not watching those show because they didn't speak to their life, is not going to get the same cultural references as them. And so "lack of cultural fit" can be used to enforce homogeneity, not only without needing an actual policy of not hiring people from working-class minority backgrounds, but without the people in charge of hiring even needing to consciously realise that's what they're doing! It enables the kind of systemic marginalisation that can be perpetuated by well-meaning people completely by accident. -- Looking back up-thread now, I think your definition might actually have been what the GP commenter was getting at. But it wasn't obviously so (at least, not obviously enough for me!) and without another explicit qualifier, "cultural fit" threw up a sizable red flag that I couldn't resist taking a swipe at. Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response that made me look at the previous comment in less reflexive light.
manmal 2y ago
And what if your manager seems to just not like you for whatever reason and won’t tell you why?
- sbarre 2y ago
  Try to change roles or companies? I don't mean this flippantly here, it's a crap situation to find yourself in but sometimes people just don't get along, or people are just not great, and you do need to know when to cut your losses and make a move.
  - manmal 2y ago
    Running away shouldn’t be the first option IMO.
    - sbarre 2y ago
      Never said it should be the first option but if your direct manager doesn't like you and won't talk about it, you don't have that many options. There is a power imbalance at play, and you are not on the good end of it. Framing it as "running away" is weird.. One of the most important life skills is to know when to pick your battles. If you go over their head, and they get forced into a discussion with you, then what? You think that will improve the relationship? And do you want to have that person responsible for your ongoing career opportunities and advancements? Unless they are actually breaking some rules, there isn't much HR or a leader high up can or will do. In fact I bet their recommendation would be to change teams as well. I'd love to hear your suggestions though.
      - manmal 2y ago
        Thanks for adding more context and nuance. In the scenario you seem to be describing, I‘d consider leaving too - my situation isn’t that bad. I think a last resort could be to request a 1on1 and speak Tacheles, and maybe find a better basis on which to communicate. If that doesn’t work out, I think leaving is an option to definitely look at, life‘s too short for bad relationships (if they can be avoided).

"make sure your manager likes you" This is always the best advice I've found. And I've also found that if your manager likes you, lots of other things just work out.

barrenko 2y ago

it's pretty goddamn stupid and seems to need constant reiteration for some people (like me!!!) but if you don't feel a cultural fit (from you as an employee point of view) - DON'T TAKE THE JOB

johnnyanmac 2y ago
With the current market, I wish I had the power to refuse a job in lieu of a better culture fit But alas.
Karellen 2y ago
[flagged]
- ebiester 2y ago
  I am not the parent poster, but if we change the definition of "cultural fit," I would like to know if that changes your opinion. (Note that I am not cis-het.) My definition of culture talks about the working values and processes in a company. Some engineers want to be given full problems and be left alone to solve them. Some engineers want to be given specifications on what to build and just turn to code. Some engineers don't work well in an org without robust automated tests. Others are fine to leave it to QA and toss it over. Some really love agile environments, and some hate them. Some like large organizations where you can be a deep expert in a small piece, and some prefer to be a generalist getting software off the ground. People have different preferences regarding async communications versus meetings. And even more fundamentally, some people want to go home at the end of the day and forget about work while others want to feel like they're in something so important that they can obsess over. (Most of us are a bit in the middle, but both extremes there exist.) Culture fit isn't (or shouldn't be) if people like to go drinking at the end of the shift, or if they like to talk about sci-fi or if you fit into the top end of the kyriarchy. (And if that is part of a company's cultural fit, it's going to be toxic in other ways, but as you say, widely marginalized groups and cultures are going to be affected much more here.)
  - Karellen 2y ago
    > My definition of culture talks about the working values and processes in a company. Yeah, that does change it. And while that's certainly a reasonable definition of "cultural fit", I don't think it's been the predominant meaning historically. As far as I'm aware, "cultural fit" has often been a tool of exclusion to e.g. justify not hiring a woman because they wouldn't be a good cultural fit in a place where all the guys talk about women as sex objects, or not hiring someone who's gay as they wouldn't be a good cultural fit where everyone makes fun of the homos, etc... But it's more subtle than that. If all the devs in a team grew up watching a bunch of white middle-class sitcoms as kids (e.g. Friends, or whatever the early-'00s equivalent would be for junior devs these days) and those are their cultural touchstones, then someone who grew up not watching those show because they didn't speak to their life, is not going to get the same cultural references as them. And so "lack of cultural fit" can be used to enforce homogeneity, not only without needing an actual policy of not hiring people from working-class minority backgrounds, but without the people in charge of hiring even needing to consciously realise that's what they're doing! It enables the kind of systemic marginalisation that can be perpetuated by well-meaning people completely by accident. -- Looking back up-thread now, I think your definition might actually have been what the GP commenter was getting at. But it wasn't obviously so (at least, not obviously enough for me!) and without another explicit qualifier, "cultural fit" threw up a sizable red flag that I couldn't resist taking a swipe at. Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response that made me look at the previous comment in less reflexive light.

manmal 2y ago

And what if your manager seems to just not like you for whatever reason and won’t tell you why?

sbarre 2y ago
Try to change roles or companies? I don't mean this flippantly here, it's a crap situation to find yourself in but sometimes people just don't get along, or people are just not great, and you do need to know when to cut your losses and make a move.
- manmal 2y ago
  Running away shouldn’t be the first option IMO.
  - sbarre 2y ago
    Never said it should be the first option but if your direct manager doesn't like you and won't talk about it, you don't have that many options. There is a power imbalance at play, and you are not on the good end of it. Framing it as "running away" is weird.. One of the most important life skills is to know when to pick your battles. If you go over their head, and they get forced into a discussion with you, then what? You think that will improve the relationship? And do you want to have that person responsible for your ongoing career opportunities and advancements? Unless they are actually breaking some rules, there isn't much HR or a leader high up can or will do. In fact I bet their recommendation would be to change teams as well. I'd love to hear your suggestions though.
    - manmal 2y ago
      Thanks for adding more context and nuance. In the scenario you seem to be describing, I‘d consider leaving too - my situation isn’t that bad. I think a last resort could be to request a 1on1 and speak Tacheles, and maybe find a better basis on which to communicate. If that doesn’t work out, I think leaving is an option to definitely look at, life‘s too short for bad relationships (if they can be avoided).