5 ms·

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if yo

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

weatherlite 2y ago
Nope not a genocide...by any reasonable definition it was not.
- racional 2y ago
  “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly” -- Defense Minister Yoav Gallant
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    So the Nakba is on going according to you, you're not even talking about 1948. Whatever.
    - racional 2y ago
      So the Nakba is on going You're catching on! The Nakba is as fresh as ever. Just ask these folks -- who are definitely in a position to know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975 As the Minister for Foreign Affairs instructs us: "Remember 48". And he sure ain't kidding. It is all very much an ongoing process.
      - weatherlite 2y ago
        Right. I can find a collection of quotes by current and previous Palestinian leaders that make them appear to be a bunch of genocidal, religious fanatics and holocaust deniers. But I'm not gonna do that because the day is short and I'm not sure what its going to achieve.
        racional 2y ago
        The quotes were directly relevant to the topic that you raised. The genocidal intent of the Nakba was as clear in 1948 as it is with the Nakba in its current form today.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        [flagged]
        racional 2y ago
        So is it mutual acts of genocide between Palestinians/Arabs and Israelis? Oh, absolutely. If the Nakba falls under the modern definition of genocide (as per the Convention), then the MENA expulsions and of course the Oct 7 pogrom do as well, in my view. My intent is not to isolate blame on one side for this mess (which I see as ultimately symbiotic, the result of provocations by both sides). But to identify the common fabric between these events -- in the hopes of finding some way to stop if from continuing perpetually, ever forward. Are Jews living through an ongoing holocaust now? Perhaps, since the term genocide lost all meaning why not. Neither side is going through a true Holocaust in the sense of what happened to the European Jews (and certain other groups at the time), of course. We are very far from that, and I see your point here about a possible dilution of the term, and of the (nearly but not entirely unique) trauma and anguish related to those events (which I spent a certain phase of my life obsessively studying, BTW). Again the overall intent is to identify sources of harm done to people, at scale and on the basis of group identity -- intended to diminish their numbers, destroy their spirit, and threaten their long-term survival as a people. I just want it all to stop.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        Got it I see where you're coming from now, Its much more balanced than I thought previously.
        racional 2y ago
tptacek 2y ago
Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.
- runarberg 2y ago
  I’ve seen you use the word Nakba alot when describing events other then the Nakba. For example a counter-Nakba to describe the Jewish exodus from Middle Eastern and North African countries which followed Israel’s unilateral deceleration of independence. I don’t think this is fair, nor helpful. It is kind of like saying that the ongoing Gaza Genocide is another Holocaust. The Nakba is a unique historic event, by calling other historic events the same name it kind of reduces the effectiveness of giving names to events, and what made them unique enough to be named in the first place. The Palestinian exodus from Kuwait for example was nothing like the actual Nakba. To begin with the victims were already refugees, so they had a place that they could flee to. Second the exile orders were a limited time (I think a week), as opposed to permanent in the case of the actual Nakba. The exile orders were not enforced with terrorism and military occupation. While the exodus from Kuwait was a terrible human rights violation, it is actually much more like ongoing refugee evacuations from Europe and North America than the actual Nakba. Calling it a Nakba is either denying the horrors of the the Nakba, or exaggerating the Palestinian exodus from Kuwait.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I respectfully disagree with you about this, and don't see the distinction you're trying to make. I am, in particular, responding to a comment --- from a commenter you agree with generally --- who himself referred to the Nakba as ongoing. Since this is just a rhetorical point, I don't think it's much worth arguing. I could come back at you with the Holocaust comparison, but what do we get out of that? So, I'm going to continue using the wording I'm using, but with respect to your objection: heard.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      (themself, sorry)

weatherlite 2y ago

Nope not a genocide...by any reasonable definition it was not.

racional 2y ago
“We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly” -- Defense Minister Yoav Gallant
- weatherlite 2y ago
  So the Nakba is on going according to you, you're not even talking about 1948. Whatever.
  - racional 2y ago
    So the Nakba is on going You're catching on! The Nakba is as fresh as ever. Just ask these folks -- who are definitely in a position to know: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975 As the Minister for Foreign Affairs instructs us: "Remember 48". And he sure ain't kidding. It is all very much an ongoing process.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      Right. I can find a collection of quotes by current and previous Palestinian leaders that make them appear to be a bunch of genocidal, religious fanatics and holocaust deniers. But I'm not gonna do that because the day is short and I'm not sure what its going to achieve.
      - racional 2y ago
        The quotes were directly relevant to the topic that you raised. The genocidal intent of the Nakba was as clear in 1948 as it is with the Nakba in its current form today.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        [flagged]
        racional 2y ago
        So is it mutual acts of genocide between Palestinians/Arabs and Israelis? Oh, absolutely. If the Nakba falls under the modern definition of genocide (as per the Convention), then the MENA expulsions and of course the Oct 7 pogrom do as well, in my view. My intent is not to isolate blame on one side for this mess (which I see as ultimately symbiotic, the result of provocations by both sides). But to identify the common fabric between these events -- in the hopes of finding some way to stop if from continuing perpetually, ever forward. Are Jews living through an ongoing holocaust now? Perhaps, since the term genocide lost all meaning why not. Neither side is going through a true Holocaust in the sense of what happened to the European Jews (and certain other groups at the time), of course. We are very far from that, and I see your point here about a possible dilution of the term, and of the (nearly but not entirely unique) trauma and anguish related to those events (which I spent a certain phase of my life obsessively studying, BTW). Again the overall intent is to identify sources of harm done to people, at scale and on the basis of group identity -- intended to diminish their numbers, destroy their spirit, and threaten their long-term survival as a people. I just want it all to stop.
        weatherlite 2y ago
        Got it I see where you're coming from now, Its much more balanced than I thought previously.
        racional 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.

runarberg 2y ago
I’ve seen you use the word Nakba alot when describing events other then the Nakba. For example a counter-Nakba to describe the Jewish exodus from Middle Eastern and North African countries which followed Israel’s unilateral deceleration of independence. I don’t think this is fair, nor helpful. It is kind of like saying that the ongoing Gaza Genocide is another Holocaust. The Nakba is a unique historic event, by calling other historic events the same name it kind of reduces the effectiveness of giving names to events, and what made them unique enough to be named in the first place. The Palestinian exodus from Kuwait for example was nothing like the actual Nakba. To begin with the victims were already refugees, so they had a place that they could flee to. Second the exile orders were a limited time (I think a week), as opposed to permanent in the case of the actual Nakba. The exile orders were not enforced with terrorism and military occupation. While the exodus from Kuwait was a terrible human rights violation, it is actually much more like ongoing refugee evacuations from Europe and North America than the actual Nakba. Calling it a Nakba is either denying the horrors of the the Nakba, or exaggerating the Palestinian exodus from Kuwait.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I respectfully disagree with you about this, and don't see the distinction you're trying to make. I am, in particular, responding to a comment --- from a commenter you agree with generally --- who himself referred to the Nakba as ongoing. Since this is just a rhetorical point, I don't think it's much worth arguing. I could come back at you with the Holocaust comparison, but what do we get out of that? So, I'm going to continue using the wording I'm using, but with respect to your objection: heard.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    (themself, sorry)