3 ms·

It’s interesting that “schizophrenia spectrum disorders” were the first to be correlated. That makes me suspect they aren’t measuring transmission at all. Given

It’s interesting that “schizophrenia spectrum disorders” were the first to be correlated. That makes me suspect they aren’t measuring transmission at all. Given they account for the general population around the schools, it may be the classroom environment or greater awareness causing the differences. The latter was mentioned as a factor they couldn’t measure.

77pt77 2y ago
Reminder that there is no quantitative test for schizophrenia despite the field overtly stating to be searching for one for over a century. Not even close.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> greater awareness causing the differences I'm extremely skeptical of this study because (a) the authors explicitly say they can't rule out greater awareness of mental disorders as being responsible for the difference, but then (b) they decided to go with their "transmission" theory anyway, probably because it makes for a better story. To be clear, I have no idea if either theory is more likely for the data they examined. But I would have trusted this study a lot more if they had presented both options as equally plausible.
- faeriechangling 2y ago
  Awareness, transmission, what precisely is the difference? Sounds to me like mental health awareness campaigns are just another transmission vector. Do we have any reason to believe that “mental health awareness” doesn’t CAUSE mental illness? To me, there’s a pretty direct line between the increase of mental health awareness campaigns and self-reported mental health. Usually this is framed in the framing “oh, the mental health issues always existed, and we just became aware of them, so things are better now since we can address them” and I am unconvinced. I mean, look at this study, eating disorders spiked, are we suggesting people secretly unknowingly had an eating disorder they only became aware of through social media? It’s nonsense! I honestly and sincerely believe there is no reason to believe that the changes to mental health understanding have not been making people sicker and sicker every year for what somewhere around 2 decades now which is around when we saw things like suicidality bottom out. We’ve seen addiction and self-harm rising and let’s not forget eating disorders. Mental health is the only field of medicine I can name where outcomes have declined over the last few decades and I find the lack of scepticism to be well - insane!
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    > there’s a pretty direct line between the increase of mental health awareness campaigns and self-reported mental health This seems like an obvious and intended result. I don't think this is suspicious. If you tell more people about something, more people will have words to describe it. I think in your comment there are multiple places where you conflate reported mental health and actual mental health, for example saying mental health is declining. Is it declining, or are reports increasing due to awareness? The answer would be non-obvious, and even if mental health was declining, I suspect that other factors like declining economic outlooks for the average person would be more likely causes than "mental health awareness campaigns".
  - DavidPiper 2y ago
    There has been research into the fact that student Doctors often report symptoms to their own doctors of the diseases they're currently studying - a kind of psychological awareness temporarily manifesting as physical symptoms. Or the belief of physical symptoms. Sort of like the phantom phone buzz in our legs that many of us get occasionally. These symptoms aren't actually the disease - just like our legs are not actually our phones. > there’s a pretty direct line between the increase of mental health awareness campaigns and self-reported mental health "Self-reported mental health" is very different from clinically diagnosed and treated mental health. > I mean, look at this study, eating disorders spiked, are we suggesting people secretly unknowingly had an eating disorder they only became aware of through social media? It’s nonsense! This is a nonsense line of thinking because "only became aware of" is not the mechanism. There is plenty of research out there about how social media actively changes mental and behavioural patterns - especially in young people - because that is what it is DESIGNED TO DO in order to increase engagement and revenue. Changing your physical behaviour severely enough to become sick is a thing. Changing your mental behaviour severely enough to become sick is a thing. Mental health might be getting worse, but simply "awareness of mental health issues" is not the mechanism.
  - viraptor 2y ago
    > Awareness, transmission, what precisely is the difference? In the first one you see issues in yourself or someone else that you learn later match some diagnosis. In the second one you gain those issues that you didn't have earlier. I've been diagnosed and improved my life exactly because enough people discussed some symptoms that I could say "hey, that's the same as my problems! (that existed for decades before)" I'm sure you could gain some issues, and empathic illnesses are a thing. But disregarding the difference here would be harmful.
- boomboomsubban 2y ago
  The study seems to say there's a transmission of diagnosis, which would allow the transmission being caused by a greater awareness.
  - kayodelycaon 2y ago
    Transmission implies it is causing more mental disorders than would otherwise be present, regardless if they were identified or not.
    - boomboomsubban 2y ago
      I wouldn't assume that, particularly when the study is very careful to always say it led to an increase in diagnosis. And really, 'I dislike the term they used to describe how diagnosis spread' is fairly nitpicky.
      - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        The title of this study is "Transmission of Mental Disorders in Adolescent Peer Networks". The "Meaning" section states "The findings of this study suggest that mental disorders might be socially transmitted within adolescent peer networks." I can't believe any plain read of that would imply they're talking about increased diagnosis of already-present mental illness due to greater awareness.
SubiculumCode 2y ago
I don't care for the sensationalist title and interpretation by the authors. Awareness of mental disorders, application of knowledge to one's mental experience and symptomology, and to a much lesser extent, but probably real, assuming the identity of the disorder that your friends have assumed for themselves or were legitimately diagnosed with, is still not transmission of a disorder.

77pt77 2y ago

Reminder that there is no quantitative test for schizophrenia despite the field overtly stating to be searching for one for over a century. Not even close.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> greater awareness causing the differences I'm extremely skeptical of this study because (a) the authors explicitly say they can't rule out greater awareness of mental disorders as being responsible for the difference, but then (b) they decided to go with their "transmission" theory anyway, probably because it makes for a better story. To be clear, I have no idea if either theory is more likely for the data they examined. But I would have trusted this study a lot more if they had presented both options as equally plausible.

faeriechangling 2y ago
Awareness, transmission, what precisely is the difference? Sounds to me like mental health awareness campaigns are just another transmission vector. Do we have any reason to believe that “mental health awareness” doesn’t CAUSE mental illness? To me, there’s a pretty direct line between the increase of mental health awareness campaigns and self-reported mental health. Usually this is framed in the framing “oh, the mental health issues always existed, and we just became aware of them, so things are better now since we can address them” and I am unconvinced. I mean, look at this study, eating disorders spiked, are we suggesting people secretly unknowingly had an eating disorder they only became aware of through social media? It’s nonsense! I honestly and sincerely believe there is no reason to believe that the changes to mental health understanding have not been making people sicker and sicker every year for what somewhere around 2 decades now which is around when we saw things like suicidality bottom out. We’ve seen addiction and self-harm rising and let’s not forget eating disorders. Mental health is the only field of medicine I can name where outcomes have declined over the last few decades and I find the lack of scepticism to be well - insane!
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  > there’s a pretty direct line between the increase of mental health awareness campaigns and self-reported mental health This seems like an obvious and intended result. I don't think this is suspicious. If you tell more people about something, more people will have words to describe it. I think in your comment there are multiple places where you conflate reported mental health and actual mental health, for example saying mental health is declining. Is it declining, or are reports increasing due to awareness? The answer would be non-obvious, and even if mental health was declining, I suspect that other factors like declining economic outlooks for the average person would be more likely causes than "mental health awareness campaigns".
- DavidPiper 2y ago
  There has been research into the fact that student Doctors often report symptoms to their own doctors of the diseases they're currently studying - a kind of psychological awareness temporarily manifesting as physical symptoms. Or the belief of physical symptoms. Sort of like the phantom phone buzz in our legs that many of us get occasionally. These symptoms aren't actually the disease - just like our legs are not actually our phones. > there’s a pretty direct line between the increase of mental health awareness campaigns and self-reported mental health "Self-reported mental health" is very different from clinically diagnosed and treated mental health. > I mean, look at this study, eating disorders spiked, are we suggesting people secretly unknowingly had an eating disorder they only became aware of through social media? It’s nonsense! This is a nonsense line of thinking because "only became aware of" is not the mechanism. There is plenty of research out there about how social media actively changes mental and behavioural patterns - especially in young people - because that is what it is DESIGNED TO DO in order to increase engagement and revenue. Changing your physical behaviour severely enough to become sick is a thing. Changing your mental behaviour severely enough to become sick is a thing. Mental health might be getting worse, but simply "awareness of mental health issues" is not the mechanism.
- viraptor 2y ago
  > Awareness, transmission, what precisely is the difference? In the first one you see issues in yourself or someone else that you learn later match some diagnosis. In the second one you gain those issues that you didn't have earlier. I've been diagnosed and improved my life exactly because enough people discussed some symptoms that I could say "hey, that's the same as my problems! (that existed for decades before)" I'm sure you could gain some issues, and empathic illnesses are a thing. But disregarding the difference here would be harmful.
boomboomsubban 2y ago
The study seems to say there's a transmission of diagnosis, which would allow the transmission being caused by a greater awareness.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  Transmission implies it is causing more mental disorders than would otherwise be present, regardless if they were identified or not.
  - boomboomsubban 2y ago
    I wouldn't assume that, particularly when the study is very careful to always say it led to an increase in diagnosis. And really, 'I dislike the term they used to describe how diagnosis spread' is fairly nitpicky.
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      The title of this study is "Transmission of Mental Disorders in Adolescent Peer Networks". The "Meaning" section states "The findings of this study suggest that mental disorders might be socially transmitted within adolescent peer networks." I can't believe any plain read of that would imply they're talking about increased diagnosis of already-present mental illness due to greater awareness.

SubiculumCode 2y ago

I don't care for the sensationalist title and interpretation by the authors. Awareness of mental disorders, application of knowledge to one's mental experience and symptomology, and to a much lesser extent, but probably real, assuming the identity of the disorder that your friends have assumed for themselves or were legitimately diagnosed with, is still not transmission of a disorder.