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> I find it hard to believe that the Tesla and Auto Manufacturer positions aren’t knowingly deceptive. The auto manufacturer approach is also showing progress.

by jefftk 2y ago

> I find it hard to believe that the Tesla and Auto Manufacturer positions aren’t knowingly deceptive. The auto manufacturer approach is also showing progress. In CA and NV you can buy and operate a Mercedes with Drive Pilot, which is Level 3 certified. In the right (very restrictive conditions which essentially come down to "sitting in highway traffic on your commute") you legally do not have to pay attention to the road and can read/watch/work/etc. https://www.mbusa.com/en/owners/manuals/drive-pilot https://www.mbusa.com/en/owners/manuals/drive-pilot

shkkmo 2y ago
That 'level 3' is still basically lane keeping and auto cruise control, the driver still has to be ready to immediately takeover, if you don't the car will stop in it's current lane with it's blinkers on. This is about the peak of what you can get with automated lane keeping and braking. I don't see any route from this point to anything like level 4.
- jefftk 2y ago
  "Immediately" can mean a bunch of different things in a driving context! Here it means "within ten seconds". Which is both short and long: it's long enough that many of the things you might want to do that take your attention are fine (reading, watching a movie, working) but not long enough that you can sleep. > This is about the peak of what you can get with automated lane keeping and braking. Are you saying that within 5y, say, we won't see a level three system that's able to handle full highway speeds?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  > level 3 is still basically ... well yeah, that is the definition of level 3. That's not going to change. They are limited by: > Our technology relies on a digital high-definition map that provides a 3D image of the road and the surroundings with information on road geometry, route characteristics, traffic signs and special traffic events IMHO Tesla's "F--- it all just use NN" approach does get around the pre-generated 3D map requirement. Even if it is not much more than Level 3.5 at the moment. Pretty funny to see it accelerate to 65mph in a parking lot b/c it thought it was on the nearby highway though.
  - jefftk 2y ago
    > it is not much more than Level 3.5 at the moment It's not even level 3, and couldn't be certified as such. It's not reliable enough for the person in the driver's seat to focus their full attention elsewhere. >> level 3 is still basically lane keeping and auto cruise control > well yeah, that is the definition of level 3 No, it's the definition of level 2: https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update ("example features: lane centering and adaptive cruise control at the same time")
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      I mean, that's very official looking. And the differentiating criteria for level 3 is "You must take over when asked" and everything 2 or below is "You must brake, steer, or accelerate as needed to ensure safety". Am I missing something? Lane keeping, cruise control and offset keeping is level 3. That's what this feature offers according to a few posts up. It makes no difference to the conversation. I'll stop poking the bear here.
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
There's still plenty that can go wrong in a hurry even if you are just streaming along in lane. All it takes is for something non-routine to happen such as a car ahead reacting to an animal, or swerving as the driver reaches for something or spills coffee on themself, or a wheel come off a car (I've seen it happen to a car in front of me), or a car crosses the center median in opposite direction (which left my ex-boss hospitalized for 6 months). I'd personally never trust an autopilot unless it's either backed by human-level AI which has also had years of driving experience, or it's in some very highly constrained environment (maybe airport bus going from gate to plane). Out on a highway or public road system is the most unpredictable environment possible.
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  > All it takes is for something non-routine to happen such as a car ahead reacting to an animal, or swerving as the driver reaches for something or spills coffee on themself, or a wheel come off a car (I've seen it happen to a car in front of me), or a car crosses the center median in opposite direction (which left my ex-boss hospitalized for 6 months) Inherent in this statement is the assumption that in such types of events, a human would necessarily do better than the machine. Each of these are extremes and I doubt that most human drivers would be able to react to avoid an accident or damage most of the time.
  - moomin 2y ago
    Question is: who’s liable for the accident in these circumstances? Because to date the legal circumstances are such you would be heavily advised to keep your autopilot off.
    - f1refly 2y ago
      Mercedes takes liability for it. That's their marketing pitch for the feature.
  - mattpallissard 2y ago
    Humans can make assumptions about humans better than machines. For example there was a trailer with a tire that blew out in front of me. It was rapidly slowing. I checked my mirrors and was being tail-gated too closely to hit the breaks. There was a car in the lane right of me, and lane right behind me. I merged hard right before it was clear. I assumed the car on my right would do the same, and the driver further behind would break in time. They either made the same assumptions as me or took my queues and acted accordingly and everything turned out ok. It is pretty amazing how people can coordinate on-the-fly.

by jefftk 2y ago

shkkmo 2y ago

That 'level 3' is still basically lane keeping and auto cruise control, the driver still has to be ready to immediately takeover, if you don't the car will stop in it's current lane with it's blinkers on. This is about the peak of what you can get with automated lane keeping and braking. I don't see any route from this point to anything like level 4.

jefftk 2y ago
"Immediately" can mean a bunch of different things in a driving context! Here it means "within ten seconds". Which is both short and long: it's long enough that many of the things you might want to do that take your attention are fine (reading, watching a movie, working) but not long enough that you can sleep. > This is about the peak of what you can get with automated lane keeping and braking. Are you saying that within 5y, say, we won't see a level three system that's able to handle full highway speeds?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
jvanderbot 2y ago
> level 3 is still basically ... well yeah, that is the definition of level 3. That's not going to change. They are limited by: > Our technology relies on a digital high-definition map that provides a 3D image of the road and the surroundings with information on road geometry, route characteristics, traffic signs and special traffic events IMHO Tesla's "F--- it all just use NN" approach does get around the pre-generated 3D map requirement. Even if it is not much more than Level 3.5 at the moment. Pretty funny to see it accelerate to 65mph in a parking lot b/c it thought it was on the nearby highway though.
- jefftk 2y ago
  > it is not much more than Level 3.5 at the moment It's not even level 3, and couldn't be certified as such. It's not reliable enough for the person in the driver's seat to focus their full attention elsewhere. >> level 3 is still basically lane keeping and auto cruise control > well yeah, that is the definition of level 3 No, it's the definition of level 2: https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update ("example features: lane centering and adaptive cruise control at the same time")
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    I mean, that's very official looking. And the differentiating criteria for level 3 is "You must take over when asked" and everything 2 or below is "You must brake, steer, or accelerate as needed to ensure safety". Am I missing something? Lane keeping, cruise control and offset keeping is level 3. That's what this feature offers according to a few posts up. It makes no difference to the conversation. I'll stop poking the bear here.

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago

There's still plenty that can go wrong in a hurry even if you are just streaming along in lane. All it takes is for something non-routine to happen such as a car ahead reacting to an animal, or swerving as the driver reaches for something or spills coffee on themself, or a wheel come off a car (I've seen it happen to a car in front of me), or a car crosses the center median in opposite direction (which left my ex-boss hospitalized for 6 months). I'd personally never trust an autopilot unless it's either backed by human-level AI which has also had years of driving experience, or it's in some very highly constrained environment (maybe airport bus going from gate to plane). Out on a highway or public road system is the most unpredictable environment possible.

CharlieDigital 2y ago
> All it takes is for something non-routine to happen such as a car ahead reacting to an animal, or swerving as the driver reaches for something or spills coffee on themself, or a wheel come off a car (I've seen it happen to a car in front of me), or a car crosses the center median in opposite direction (which left my ex-boss hospitalized for 6 months) Inherent in this statement is the assumption that in such types of events, a human would necessarily do better than the machine. Each of these are extremes and I doubt that most human drivers would be able to react to avoid an accident or damage most of the time.
- moomin 2y ago
  Question is: who’s liable for the accident in these circumstances? Because to date the legal circumstances are such you would be heavily advised to keep your autopilot off.
  - f1refly 2y ago
    Mercedes takes liability for it. That's their marketing pitch for the feature.
- mattpallissard 2y ago
  Humans can make assumptions about humans better than machines. For example there was a trailer with a tire that blew out in front of me. It was rapidly slowing. I checked my mirrors and was being tail-gated too closely to hit the breaks. There was a car in the lane right of me, and lane right behind me. I merged hard right before it was clear. I assumed the car on my right would do the same, and the driver further behind would break in time. They either made the same assumptions as me or took my queues and acted accordingly and everything turned out ok. It is pretty amazing how people can coordinate on-the-fly.