5 ms·

>Maintainers should be able to screw up in public without fear of an internet pile-on. While that's a nice soundbite in principal... Klode was incredibly rude

by worble 2y ago

>Maintainers should be able to screw up in public without fear of an internet pile-on. While that's a nice soundbite in principal... Klode was incredibly rude on the bug report, didn't communicate with the upstream and (at the time) was seemingly unwilling to budge on the issue. Actions have consequences and maintainers aren't above basic politeness just because their volunteer their time. This whole kerfuffle could've been avoided if he was just a bit nicer in his communication?

Spivak 2y ago
Maybe but he was going to get the pile-on no matter what he actually said so long as he stood firm on his decision so I'm not sure that's relevant. Yes he was a jerk in the Github issue, not defending that, but people didn't pile on because he was rude, they piled-on because of the actual change. The post wasn't "hey look at this rude asshole" but "rogue Debian maintainer $makes_change." I would bet that most people aware of the story never even clicked through to the GH issue to see the tea.
- timw4mail 2y ago
  It was really both. The rudeness certainly escalated the issue.
- syoc 2y ago
  How is this a debian maintainer going rogue? Maintainers making changes to default package build flags is quite normal and should be expected. These changes were even requested in the public bug tracker.
- apple4ever 2y ago
  While there may have been an initial pile on, it could've abated pretty quickly if he was nicer and was willing to discuss it. Most of the pile on was exacerbated by his attitude.
rgreekguy 2y ago
Like everything in the ever-welcoming Linux uwuorld, Debian also has a code of conduct. Personal attacks seem to be against it, and Klode got /very/ attacked in this situation. I feel like he should either stop maintaining the Debian package or block White from contributing in some way. If they want to adhere to said code of conduct, of course... which was made -- first and foremostly -- for and by softies to avoid altercation.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >which was made -- first and foremostly -- for and by softies to avoid altercation What is a "softie"?
  - lucb1e 2y ago
    "(1) a weak or foolish person, (2) a softhearted or sentimental person" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/softie https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/softie (I don't like the word. Just answering the question without agreeing that anyone should be called a softie.)
- michaelt 2y ago
  > Debian also has a code of conduct. Personal attacks seem to be against it As I understand it, White is not a Debian contributor, and the discussions did not happen on a Debian mailing list. So I'm not sure what Debian's code of conduct has to do with anything?
- thayne 2y ago
  > Users who need this crap can install the crappy version -- comment by Klode IMHO, calling software someone works hard to maintain "crappy" is a personal attack. So Klode isn't innocent with respect to the code of contact either.
- selykg 2y ago
  > If they want to adhere to said code of conduct, of course... which was made -- first and foremostly -- for and by softies to avoid altercation. This is a really poor way to look at this. Using this type of language is probably part of the reason the code of conduct exists. People that work for free on something don't deserve this. No one deserves this. I'm particularly angered by this type of thing because I deal with horrible colleagues all the time. I'm working on getting away from this situation but the job market is not easy to navigate right now. No one should have to feel like the work they do is negatively impacting their mental health because some random on the internet has forgotten they're talking to another human being.
josephcsible 2y ago
The reason for the pile-on wasn't for screwing up. It was for refusing to correct his screw-up after it was pointed out. Consider people who are declared legally dead but are still alive. If all it takes to fix it is showing up at a government office with some ID and saying "hey, look, I'm still alive", then a pile-on isn't deserved. But if the government workers all just say "the system says you're dead, and dead people can't come back to life, so there's nothing we can do", then they all do deserve to be raked over the coals until they change their mind.
- vsnf 2y ago
  This could be interesting. Can the dead be charged with crimes? Can they be posthumously convicted? I’m sure the system would quickly find that the party in question is in fact alive in this case, but fun to ponder idly on.
  - speed_spread 2y ago
    I once read about the case of a galactically famous rock singer that spent a year dead for fiscal reasons.
- tpoacher 2y ago
  Except on this analogy, Klode was the person claiming the rational "hey look I'm alive" approach, whereas his detractors were the ones using loud campaigns because they relied on edge-case "advantages" conferred by the "computer says no" system, and demanding people showing up alive with IDs at hand be turned away on the spot as the default option.
  - btasker 2y ago
    I'm not sure that using a browser integration rather than having credentials pass through the clipboard really counts as an edge-case. In fact, I'd go further and say it's exactly the use-case that should be being encouraged. As well as avoiding the issue of clip-board watchers, it also reduces friction and increases the likelihood of ordinary users being willing and able to use it. Using a hardware key to unlock the database arguably is more of an edge-case, but conversely I'd argue that it's not acceptable to simply break that workflow. So, IMO, Klode was very much the "computer says no" part of the analogy. He changed the process so the default was to turn away live use-cases.

by worble 2y ago

Spivak 2y ago

Maybe but he was going to get the pile-on no matter what he actually said so long as he stood firm on his decision so I'm not sure that's relevant. Yes he was a jerk in the Github issue, not defending that, but people didn't pile on because he was rude, they piled-on because of the actual change. The post wasn't "hey look at this rude asshole" but "rogue Debian maintainer $makes_change." I would bet that most people aware of the story never even clicked through to the GH issue to see the tea.

timw4mail 2y ago
It was really both. The rudeness certainly escalated the issue.
syoc 2y ago
How is this a debian maintainer going rogue? Maintainers making changes to default package build flags is quite normal and should be expected. These changes were even requested in the public bug tracker.
apple4ever 2y ago
While there may have been an initial pile on, it could've abated pretty quickly if he was nicer and was willing to discuss it. Most of the pile on was exacerbated by his attitude.

rgreekguy 2y ago

Like everything in the ever-welcoming Linux uwuorld, Debian also has a code of conduct. Personal attacks seem to be against it, and Klode got /very/ attacked in this situation. I feel like he should either stop maintaining the Debian package or block White from contributing in some way. If they want to adhere to said code of conduct, of course... which was made -- first and foremostly -- for and by softies to avoid altercation.

ziddoap 2y ago
>which was made -- first and foremostly -- for and by softies to avoid altercation What is a "softie"?
- lucb1e 2y ago
  "(1) a weak or foolish person, (2) a softhearted or sentimental person" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/softie https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/softie (I don't like the word. Just answering the question without agreeing that anyone should be called a softie.)
michaelt 2y ago
> Debian also has a code of conduct. Personal attacks seem to be against it As I understand it, White is not a Debian contributor, and the discussions did not happen on a Debian mailing list. So I'm not sure what Debian's code of conduct has to do with anything?
thayne 2y ago
> Users who need this crap can install the crappy version -- comment by Klode IMHO, calling software someone works hard to maintain "crappy" is a personal attack. So Klode isn't innocent with respect to the code of contact either.
selykg 2y ago
> If they want to adhere to said code of conduct, of course... which was made -- first and foremostly -- for and by softies to avoid altercation. This is a really poor way to look at this. Using this type of language is probably part of the reason the code of conduct exists. People that work for free on something don't deserve this. No one deserves this. I'm particularly angered by this type of thing because I deal with horrible colleagues all the time. I'm working on getting away from this situation but the job market is not easy to navigate right now. No one should have to feel like the work they do is negatively impacting their mental health because some random on the internet has forgotten they're talking to another human being.

josephcsible 2y ago

The reason for the pile-on wasn't for screwing up. It was for refusing to correct his screw-up after it was pointed out. Consider people who are declared legally dead but are still alive. If all it takes to fix it is showing up at a government office with some ID and saying "hey, look, I'm still alive", then a pile-on isn't deserved. But if the government workers all just say "the system says you're dead, and dead people can't come back to life, so there's nothing we can do", then they all do deserve to be raked over the coals until they change their mind.

vsnf 2y ago
This could be interesting. Can the dead be charged with crimes? Can they be posthumously convicted? I’m sure the system would quickly find that the party in question is in fact alive in this case, but fun to ponder idly on.
- speed_spread 2y ago
  I once read about the case of a galactically famous rock singer that spent a year dead for fiscal reasons.
tpoacher 2y ago
Except on this analogy, Klode was the person claiming the rational "hey look I'm alive" approach, whereas his detractors were the ones using loud campaigns because they relied on edge-case "advantages" conferred by the "computer says no" system, and demanding people showing up alive with IDs at hand be turned away on the spot as the default option.
- btasker 2y ago
  I'm not sure that using a browser integration rather than having credentials pass through the clipboard really counts as an edge-case. In fact, I'd go further and say it's exactly the use-case that should be being encouraged. As well as avoiding the issue of clip-board watchers, it also reduces friction and increases the likelihood of ordinary users being willing and able to use it. Using a hardware key to unlock the database arguably is more of an edge-case, but conversely I'd argue that it's not acceptable to simply break that workflow. So, IMO, Klode was very much the "computer says no" part of the analogy. He changed the process so the default was to turn away live use-cases.