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I never understood why it didn't completely take over. It worked flawlessly for every use case I tried. It always seemed to me like it a "free" way to make it

I never understood why it didn't completely take over. It worked flawlessly for every use case I tried. It always seemed to me like it a "free" way to make it faster. Why would it matter whether it was endorsed by the BDFL or PSF?

PartiallyTyped 2y ago
If you want your code to run faster, you should probably just use PyPy. Guido Van Rossum (once CPython's BDFL) said that.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  At PyCon 2015: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wDvzy6Hgxg&t=16m52s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wDvzy6Hgxg&t=16m52s
zzzeek 2y ago
pypy has never kept up with cPython features and releases. it was always well behind the curve and did not provide essential behaviors in a timely fashion. plus it can't run any C extensions or cython code (or has to run them with emulations that erase the speed benefits), which takes a big chunk out of the available ecosystem. Example: the situation with numpy: https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#what-about-numpy-numpypy-micronumpy https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#what-about-numpy-num...
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  It keeps up pretty well, I think. But given what's in a version of Python is "what's implemented in CPython at that version", I don't see how it's possible to keep up very easily at all.
  - zzzeek 2y ago
    this is nonsense, cPython's development is very public and works on a multi-year schedule. It's not like Python 3.5.0 is released and that's when everyone knows what features it will have, each major version goes through at least a year of alphas and betas. Pypy spends a few years behind that and on top of it sometimes introduces new bugs that have to be reported and fixed. this is not anyone's fault, it's just for what pypy is doing to be successful, they would need a much larger maintenance ecosystem which they just dont have. The contributor ecosystem for cpython is literally ten times larger than that of pypy.
jsmeaton 2y ago
It doesn’t work with psycopg or many other libraries that use c extensions. That’s the main reason.
- lucb1e 2y ago
  Only because they were compiled against cpython and not pypy right? If pypy had taken off/over, wouldn't it have been the other way around, where you need to do a special compile any time you want to use a C project with cpython rather than using the prebuilt pypy-compatible version? Edit: things seem to have changed since I last looked into compiling a dependency for pypy. https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#do-c-extension-modules-work-with-pypy https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#do-c-extension-modul... now says they support c-extension modules without modifications The package you mentioned, some postgres thing apparently, mentions they support pypy 3.9 and 3.10: https://www.psycopg.org/psycopg3/docs/basic/install.html https://www.psycopg.org/psycopg3/docs/basic/install.html
  - vasco 2y ago
    "Only": https://github.com/psycopg/psycopg/issues/154 https://github.com/psycopg/psycopg/issues/154
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
    By “some postgres thing”, you mean…pretty much the only way that one would connect to Postgres in Python!
    - lucb1e 2y ago
      Right, I just wasn't familiar with it (never heard this name before) and the only association I could think of for this abbreviated name was psyops and cops. Turns out it's actually for postgres which, of course, is a name I very well know. Didn't realize it was a well-known library!
    - leadingthenet 2y ago
      There's also https://github.com/MagicStack/asyncpg https://github.com/MagicStack/asyncpg
QuadmasterXLII 2y ago
If someone suggested switching to a new C++ compiler with 99% of the features of the C++ standard with the selling point that it ran template metaprograms 100x faster, could you convince your company to switch? In the setting where python shines and performance matters, python is serving as the metalanguage executed at compile time for a strictly typed compiled language such as SQL, torch graph traces, jax, or z3
- EasyMark 2y ago
  that only wins when it will lower costs significantly (percentage-wise) at my company :) . We don't care how much more green it would be, how fast it is, our main thing is always "how much does it cost" with everything converted to $$ (dev time, server cost, etc) and it can't change uptime, we would lose customers quickly without uptime, we have a fickle bunch.

PartiallyTyped 2y ago

If you want your code to run faster, you should probably just use PyPy. Guido Van Rossum (once CPython's BDFL) said that.

throw0101d 2y ago
At PyCon 2015: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wDvzy6Hgxg&t=16m52s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wDvzy6Hgxg&t=16m52s

zzzeek 2y ago

pypy has never kept up with cPython features and releases. it was always well behind the curve and did not provide essential behaviors in a timely fashion. plus it can't run any C extensions or cython code (or has to run them with emulations that erase the speed benefits), which takes a big chunk out of the available ecosystem. Example: the situation with numpy: https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#what-about-numpy-numpypy-micronumpy https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#what-about-numpy-num...

robertlagrant 2y ago
It keeps up pretty well, I think. But given what's in a version of Python is "what's implemented in CPython at that version", I don't see how it's possible to keep up very easily at all.
- zzzeek 2y ago
  this is nonsense, cPython's development is very public and works on a multi-year schedule. It's not like Python 3.5.0 is released and that's when everyone knows what features it will have, each major version goes through at least a year of alphas and betas. Pypy spends a few years behind that and on top of it sometimes introduces new bugs that have to be reported and fixed. this is not anyone's fault, it's just for what pypy is doing to be successful, they would need a much larger maintenance ecosystem which they just dont have. The contributor ecosystem for cpython is literally ten times larger than that of pypy.

jsmeaton 2y ago

It doesn’t work with psycopg or many other libraries that use c extensions. That’s the main reason.

lucb1e 2y ago
Only because they were compiled against cpython and not pypy right? If pypy had taken off/over, wouldn't it have been the other way around, where you need to do a special compile any time you want to use a C project with cpython rather than using the prebuilt pypy-compatible version? Edit: things seem to have changed since I last looked into compiling a dependency for pypy. https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#do-c-extension-modules-work-with-pypy https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/faq.html#do-c-extension-modul... now says they support c-extension modules without modifications The package you mentioned, some postgres thing apparently, mentions they support pypy 3.9 and 3.10: https://www.psycopg.org/psycopg3/docs/basic/install.html https://www.psycopg.org/psycopg3/docs/basic/install.html
- vasco 2y ago
  "Only": https://github.com/psycopg/psycopg/issues/154 https://github.com/psycopg/psycopg/issues/154
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  By “some postgres thing”, you mean…pretty much the only way that one would connect to Postgres in Python!
  - lucb1e 2y ago
    Right, I just wasn't familiar with it (never heard this name before) and the only association I could think of for this abbreviated name was psyops and cops. Turns out it's actually for postgres which, of course, is a name I very well know. Didn't realize it was a well-known library!
  - leadingthenet 2y ago
    There's also https://github.com/MagicStack/asyncpg https://github.com/MagicStack/asyncpg

QuadmasterXLII 2y ago

If someone suggested switching to a new C++ compiler with 99% of the features of the C++ standard with the selling point that it ran template metaprograms 100x faster, could you convince your company to switch? In the setting where python shines and performance matters, python is serving as the metalanguage executed at compile time for a strictly typed compiled language such as SQL, torch graph traces, jax, or z3

EasyMark 2y ago
that only wins when it will lower costs significantly (percentage-wise) at my company :) . We don't care how much more green it would be, how fast it is, our main thing is always "how much does it cost" with everything converted to $$ (dev time, server cost, etc) and it can't change uptime, we would lose customers quickly without uptime, we have a fickle bunch.