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Well, FrankenPHP avoids that prayer, cause it's already done for you lmao But obviously the point of using PHP is for its ecosystem, frameworks etc. Go is stil

Well, FrankenPHP avoids that prayer, cause it's already done for you lmao But obviously the point of using PHP is for its ecosystem, frameworks etc. Go is still missing a lot of that, the Go community has a weird aversion to frameworks.

zer00eyz 2y ago
I wrote PHP from version 3 to version 6... I remember PHP before it had "frameworks"... PHP ate perl because the battery's were included, you didn't need CPAN, and it had an amazing manual... Python (pip), Ruby (gems) and Node (NPM) all looked much more attractive because they had rich library's at their core and symphony wasnt really useful yet. Yet Go eschews a lot of the same package management issues those other languages have. And a lot of go devs look at the standard library the same way early PHP devs looked at it "I dont need a lot more than this". It's not that go devs are framework adverse we only want what we need and nothing more. In a language that favors composition frameworks quickly become "baggage". It's kind of interesting to watch someone come from a language with a strong package ecosystem and watch them build their first go project. They tend to cruise GitHub and throw EVERYTHING in the cart. It takes them 3-4 days of working with all that before they are complaining up a storm! You hand that same dev SQLC, Validator, and point them at middle ware and the standard lib and ask them for API's and they come back 2 days later grinning ear to ear. Go, done well, is brutalism. Blocky, functional concrete buildings have an amazing charm to them... Go is blocky, its utilitarian, its expressive... You dont write cute code in go, you dont try to make go magical, you want clear easy to read and understand code... Your more likely to come back and add features long before you have to address the performance of go.
- seszett 2y ago
  > version 6 PHP6? That was long ago because I don't even remember it! I don't have much to say otherwise, except you could very well say the same "Go is great" without having to shit on PHP and the project that is being discussed here. Especially since you don't really come off as very knowledgeable on what you're talking about.
  - zer00eyz 2y ago
    It might shock you that I wrote perl before PHP... I have been in the game a LONG time. I was around for php being the language that EVERYONE shit on. I was around when PHP got somewhat huge and respectable. PHP buttered my bread for a number of years and I was one of its bigger advocates. My lament here isnt about PHP at all.. It's about the instructions here: https://frankenphp.dev/docs/embed/ https://frankenphp.dev/docs/embed/ to generate a monolithic binary... It's about the execution of this script https://github.com/dunglas/frankenphp/blob/main/build-static.sh https://github.com/dunglas/frankenphp/blob/main/build-static... None of that is very go like at all. Having spent a lot of time with PHP I recognize a good portion of what turns up in that shell script. That having been said there are parts of it (the curl of the diff) with NO context that I would pause and go figure out what the hell that was. It really needs a note as to WHY it's there so I dont have to go hunting. It looks like the shell script is meant to work in the docker container... A real build system might be in order here (make, basel, mage).
    - pierstoval 2y ago
      It doesn't matter you wrote perl before PHP, actually. You're talking about PHP6 like it's a thing (spoiler alert: it was never released), and you don't seem to have ever used one of the famous frameworks PHP had seen since the 2010s. Even Symfony 1 was here in 2005, and PHP 5.3 brang a complete revolution and growth of the entire ecosystem (thanks to closures and namespaces, at first), which made people embrace PHP more willingly, Composer was released, incredible frameworks were created and used Composer (that's how we got Symfony 2, and Symfony later helped Laravel come as an extremely popular framework). All of this was funded by companies that believed in PHP, while PHP-haters moved to something else (I know that: my older brother, who's also a dev, did some PHP back then, but was more appealed to other techs like Java). You moved to Go? Good: PHP doesn't do everything that Go does, because it wasn't meant for that. We do PHP instead? Perfect: Go wasn't created to develop web-apps in the first place, it's a low-level network-related project, and turned into something way bigger that allows you to code web apps quicker than in Go's early life. PHP has always been about creating web applications, and will always be, even when some people try to tinker with it on some other levels (like servers using async & threads, or desktop apps). And honestly, FrankenPHP is an incredibly good combination of both worlds: brings all the scalability of Go, with the flexibility of Caddy (which is written in Go too) in the infrastructure, while allowing us to continue coding with all the incredibly powerful frameworks we have in PHP to create the web app. It's the best for all the people that have an interest in that. You can't hate on that unless you just hate for the sake of hating.
- cess11 2y ago
  PHP 6 was never released.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > I wrote PHP from version 3 to version 6. There was never a released version 6. https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php6 https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php6
  - 867-5309 2y ago
    for the same reason as Windows 9 - it would have clashed with PHP '68 /j

zer00eyz 2y ago

I wrote PHP from version 3 to version 6... I remember PHP before it had "frameworks"... PHP ate perl because the battery's were included, you didn't need CPAN, and it had an amazing manual... Python (pip), Ruby (gems) and Node (NPM) all looked much more attractive because they had rich library's at their core and symphony wasnt really useful yet. Yet Go eschews a lot of the same package management issues those other languages have. And a lot of go devs look at the standard library the same way early PHP devs looked at it "I dont need a lot more than this". It's not that go devs are framework adverse we only want what we need and nothing more. In a language that favors composition frameworks quickly become "baggage". It's kind of interesting to watch someone come from a language with a strong package ecosystem and watch them build their first go project. They tend to cruise GitHub and throw EVERYTHING in the cart. It takes them 3-4 days of working with all that before they are complaining up a storm! You hand that same dev SQLC, Validator, and point them at middle ware and the standard lib and ask them for API's and they come back 2 days later grinning ear to ear. Go, done well, is brutalism. Blocky, functional concrete buildings have an amazing charm to them... Go is blocky, its utilitarian, its expressive... You dont write cute code in go, you dont try to make go magical, you want clear easy to read and understand code... Your more likely to come back and add features long before you have to address the performance of go.

seszett 2y ago
> version 6 PHP6? That was long ago because I don't even remember it! I don't have much to say otherwise, except you could very well say the same "Go is great" without having to shit on PHP and the project that is being discussed here. Especially since you don't really come off as very knowledgeable on what you're talking about.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  It might shock you that I wrote perl before PHP... I have been in the game a LONG time. I was around for php being the language that EVERYONE shit on. I was around when PHP got somewhat huge and respectable. PHP buttered my bread for a number of years and I was one of its bigger advocates. My lament here isnt about PHP at all.. It's about the instructions here: https://frankenphp.dev/docs/embed/ https://frankenphp.dev/docs/embed/ to generate a monolithic binary... It's about the execution of this script https://github.com/dunglas/frankenphp/blob/main/build-static.sh https://github.com/dunglas/frankenphp/blob/main/build-static... None of that is very go like at all. Having spent a lot of time with PHP I recognize a good portion of what turns up in that shell script. That having been said there are parts of it (the curl of the diff) with NO context that I would pause and go figure out what the hell that was. It really needs a note as to WHY it's there so I dont have to go hunting. It looks like the shell script is meant to work in the docker container... A real build system might be in order here (make, basel, mage).
  - pierstoval 2y ago
    It doesn't matter you wrote perl before PHP, actually. You're talking about PHP6 like it's a thing (spoiler alert: it was never released), and you don't seem to have ever used one of the famous frameworks PHP had seen since the 2010s. Even Symfony 1 was here in 2005, and PHP 5.3 brang a complete revolution and growth of the entire ecosystem (thanks to closures and namespaces, at first), which made people embrace PHP more willingly, Composer was released, incredible frameworks were created and used Composer (that's how we got Symfony 2, and Symfony later helped Laravel come as an extremely popular framework). All of this was funded by companies that believed in PHP, while PHP-haters moved to something else (I know that: my older brother, who's also a dev, did some PHP back then, but was more appealed to other techs like Java). You moved to Go? Good: PHP doesn't do everything that Go does, because it wasn't meant for that. We do PHP instead? Perfect: Go wasn't created to develop web-apps in the first place, it's a low-level network-related project, and turned into something way bigger that allows you to code web apps quicker than in Go's early life. PHP has always been about creating web applications, and will always be, even when some people try to tinker with it on some other levels (like servers using async & threads, or desktop apps). And honestly, FrankenPHP is an incredibly good combination of both worlds: brings all the scalability of Go, with the flexibility of Caddy (which is written in Go too) in the infrastructure, while allowing us to continue coding with all the incredibly powerful frameworks we have in PHP to create the web app. It's the best for all the people that have an interest in that. You can't hate on that unless you just hate for the sake of hating.
cess11 2y ago
PHP 6 was never released.
ceejayoz 2y ago
> I wrote PHP from version 3 to version 6. There was never a released version 6. https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php6 https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php6
- 867-5309 2y ago
  for the same reason as Windows 9 - it would have clashed with PHP '68 /j