3 ms·

Tesla tried to get their charging standard adopted years ago from the outset of their business. The incumbents rejected the standard. Now they are adopting it.

GuB-42 2y ago
As I understand it, it came with strings attached, and incumbents understandably rejected it. Now they really opened the system, that's what drove the adoption. Another thing: Not the whole world adopted the Tesla connector, only North America (that's why it is called NACS). Europe uses CCS-2, including for Tesla cars. CCS-2 is better than CCS, and arguably better than NACS in Europe as it supports 3-phase AC.
- ethagknight 2y ago
  Why is 3 phase AC better? Doesn’t that just require additional components in the car to convert to DC?
  - HappMacDonald 2y ago
    Well they said "better in Europe". So I don't think they are endorsing 3 phase AC as much as endorsing doing as the Romans do when in Rome.
  - Dries007 2y ago
    3 Phase is (normally, in Europe) 3x400V+N. Single phase is 230V. AC chargers here (Belgium) are usually 11kW or 22kW capable (at least nominally). This is 16 or 32A. A normal household socket ciruict is 20A here, so this is not very abnormal wiring wise. Most homes are actually hooked up to three phase power, but just have a single phase meter, so an upgrade is usually affordable. If you want to offer 11kW or 22kW single phase, you'd need 47A or 95A service, with massive cables etc. Hence why most single phase chargers are 7.4kW limited here (32A). Also: Almost no cars would even take that in on 1 phase as far as I know. Higher amperage is what costs more in terms of losses and cables, so less amps is good. 3x230V also exists, but at least here, is being phased out.
    - pyrale 2y ago
      Is there still a N needed for 3phase? The big selling point of triphased power is that you don't need a neutral line, which is obviously a big benefit for transport. Is there a benefit to add a neutral line for battery loading?
      - Dries007 2y ago
        Yes and no. No on the distribution network (aka up to the transformer in the street usually, but for sure not on the xxx kV lines) because there the lines are balanced. In your house, you do, because the voltage between 2 phases is 400V, but the voltage between 1 phase and N is 230V. So you have "low" voltage for "normal" appliances, but high-voltage (and thus high-power) available for high power applications. For example: EV charging, induction cooking, home heating / AC etc. For an EV usually the N wouldn't be needed, if you always charged at a balanced power on all phases. But from my experience, the full 3 phase power is only used when the battery is empty. At some point the charger switches back to single phase to better modulate the current I guess. Sidenote: On a 3x230V net, you don't have an N, but that means you also don't have a non-power conducting wire either! Meaning: double pole switches and breakers are required to prevent shocks. This is why these are generally required in Belgium btw. See also Y vs Δ distrubution nets: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-10/three-phase-y-delta-configurations/ https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-curren...
        pyrale 2y ago
        Ok. In France there is usually a single phase for house appliances. Triphased networks are for distribution and transport. Thanks for the explanation!
        yencabulator 2y ago
        I think it's more, 3-phase+N can be converted to 1-phase whenever needed with simple wiring. So even in France, you might have 3+N coming to the breaker panel, and then 1-phase from there on.
  - phkahler 2y ago
    >> Why is 3 phase AC better? It's better in general because it can deliver continuous power rather than power at twice the line frequency. If you're going to convert AC->DC and want a constant current to the battery, there will need to be a rather large capacitor to smooth the 100Hz or 120Hz power coming in.
- ianburrell 2y ago
  North America uses CCS-1. CCS usually refers to the charging protocol. Important change is that NACS is the Tesla connector with the open CCS protocol. That means can use dumb adapters for CCS-1. And chargers can change to better connector without changing electronics.

GuB-42 2y ago

As I understand it, it came with strings attached, and incumbents understandably rejected it. Now they really opened the system, that's what drove the adoption. Another thing: Not the whole world adopted the Tesla connector, only North America (that's why it is called NACS). Europe uses CCS-2, including for Tesla cars. CCS-2 is better than CCS, and arguably better than NACS in Europe as it supports 3-phase AC.

ethagknight 2y ago
Why is 3 phase AC better? Doesn’t that just require additional components in the car to convert to DC?
- HappMacDonald 2y ago
  Well they said "better in Europe". So I don't think they are endorsing 3 phase AC as much as endorsing doing as the Romans do when in Rome.
- Dries007 2y ago
  3 Phase is (normally, in Europe) 3x400V+N. Single phase is 230V. AC chargers here (Belgium) are usually 11kW or 22kW capable (at least nominally). This is 16 or 32A. A normal household socket ciruict is 20A here, so this is not very abnormal wiring wise. Most homes are actually hooked up to three phase power, but just have a single phase meter, so an upgrade is usually affordable. If you want to offer 11kW or 22kW single phase, you'd need 47A or 95A service, with massive cables etc. Hence why most single phase chargers are 7.4kW limited here (32A). Also: Almost no cars would even take that in on 1 phase as far as I know. Higher amperage is what costs more in terms of losses and cables, so less amps is good. 3x230V also exists, but at least here, is being phased out.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    Is there still a N needed for 3phase? The big selling point of triphased power is that you don't need a neutral line, which is obviously a big benefit for transport. Is there a benefit to add a neutral line for battery loading?
    - Dries007 2y ago
      Yes and no. No on the distribution network (aka up to the transformer in the street usually, but for sure not on the xxx kV lines) because there the lines are balanced. In your house, you do, because the voltage between 2 phases is 400V, but the voltage between 1 phase and N is 230V. So you have "low" voltage for "normal" appliances, but high-voltage (and thus high-power) available for high power applications. For example: EV charging, induction cooking, home heating / AC etc. For an EV usually the N wouldn't be needed, if you always charged at a balanced power on all phases. But from my experience, the full 3 phase power is only used when the battery is empty. At some point the charger switches back to single phase to better modulate the current I guess. Sidenote: On a 3x230V net, you don't have an N, but that means you also don't have a non-power conducting wire either! Meaning: double pole switches and breakers are required to prevent shocks. This is why these are generally required in Belgium btw. See also Y vs Δ distrubution nets: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-10/three-phase-y-delta-configurations/ https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-curren...
      - pyrale 2y ago
        Ok. In France there is usually a single phase for house appliances. Triphased networks are for distribution and transport. Thanks for the explanation!
        yencabulator 2y ago
        I think it's more, 3-phase+N can be converted to 1-phase whenever needed with simple wiring. So even in France, you might have 3+N coming to the breaker panel, and then 1-phase from there on.
- phkahler 2y ago
  >> Why is 3 phase AC better? It's better in general because it can deliver continuous power rather than power at twice the line frequency. If you're going to convert AC->DC and want a constant current to the battery, there will need to be a rather large capacitor to smooth the 100Hz or 120Hz power coming in.
ianburrell 2y ago
North America uses CCS-1. CCS usually refers to the charging protocol. Important change is that NACS is the Tesla connector with the open CCS protocol. That means can use dumb adapters for CCS-1. And chargers can change to better connector without changing electronics.