4 ms·

They pretty much had to make it f2p to have a chance against LoL, the currently dominant game in the genre. Dota 2 vs LoL should be pretty interesting. I'd ar

by soup10 14y ago

They pretty much had to make it f2p to have a chance against LoL, the currently dominant game in the genre. Dota 2 vs LoL should be pretty interesting. I'd argue that LoL has an extremely strong first mover advantage. Dota was technically first, but it wasn't a standalone game, and was completely inaccessible for new players, so I don't really count it. What i'm curious to see is if a company with as much reputation/money as valve can overcome that. If I was a gambling man i'd guess that LoL is going to stay #1, both because they have the first mover advantage, and because this is Riot's only product, so they have way more at stake than Valve, and are going to work harder to make sure they have the best product.

Smerity 14y ago
The playability has improved greatly since the original DotA. The UI for DotA 2 has been tweaked to be far more friendly to the novice player. Items used to be one of the most confusing elements of the game and has been fixed by giving each player a simple to follow suggested items guide. Starting a game is also incredibly streamlined. Three or four clicks, a "time until in game" suggestion and then that's it. They've also introduced a karma system where you reward or punish other players for their actions, including language, suicidal playing style and so on. I agree it'll be interesting to see how it competes with other games in the same genre but my money right now would be on DotA 2 simply as Valve really know how to make their games.
- Chrono 14y ago
  DotA was not at all novice friendly and I do believe DotA 2 has done a lot to reduce the barrier of entry. The UI is simply amazing at this point and all matchmaking based games should really look at DotA 2 before designing their UI, it is simply that good (in my opnion).
mquander 14y ago
I expect that LoL might retain a devoted playerbase, sort of like Runescape, but I definitely predict that Dota 2 will be making a ton of money and getting all the attention. - They seem serious about sponsoring tournaments and making it competitive and balanced - LoL turns off a lot of people with pay to win - Their interface and client is already holy shit way better, like night-and-day better, and I expect that it will just get more better, since they have more talent and more man-hours - They should know how to promote and run F2P games as well as Riot, since TF2 was a big success for them
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  When I worked on LoL, there was a lot of focus that it not be play to win (this right up to release). I wondered how that would turn out. What would you say is wrong? (I'm not a big fan of the genre [I'm not a pvp guy], so I haven't kept up on the game.)
  - mquander 14y ago
    As a semi-casual player -- maybe I played 200 games ever -- I could not possibly play enough to earn many of the champions, so I get to choose between not having them or paying a ton of money (IIRC, many are like five to ten bucks a pop.) In addition, the newest champions are typically both the most powerful (at least for a while, until they are nerfed) and the most expensive, so those who pay get them first. Stronger players could also buy XP boosts, to level their summoner faster than I could, and IP boosts, to buy better runes than I could -- those are just strict improvements to their characters' stats with no caveats. The only way a non-payer could achieve parity on these metrics would be to play many hundreds or thousands of games.
    - astrobe_ 14y ago
      Upon reaching competitive level (level 30), you must have won a descent enough amount of free points (IP, as opposed to RP that one gets only by paying) to have a bunch of champions with appropriate runes. I think it is not really a problem, because you need to master the champions you play anyway to have some fun and win games. Then, if one really enjoys the game, one plays just for the fun and IPs can stack up without you noticing. The IP boosts thing is actually not a good idea: you reach higher levels artificially, without gaining real experience with the game and the champions you play. If you go straight to ranked games at level 30 by this mean, your ELO will probably be very poor; you'll be flamed by your team for your poor play, and that's a really bad experience (you'll have to learn to ignore clueless flamers though). It should also be noted that Riot is not very greedy: sometimes you get free IP boosts, and even free RP (not enough to immediately buy something though - well played). And upon a recent server incident they refunded me RPs without asking questions - even though they could see I never bought anything from them. The only things one cannot get just by playing are skins (custom outfits for the characters). As strange as it seems to me, it is actually the first thing that some players buy - instead of things that would improve their character's stats. It seems to me that it works in a similar way as shareware games works. I also think it is an interesting response to the problem of piracy. See for instance Blizzard with Starcraft 2, who apparently refuse to offer LAN mode just because of that.
sliverstorm 14y ago
Does Valve care if it can't make it to #1? More sophisticated arguments aside, having the largest userbase is not necessarily a win when following the f2p model. What you really want is the largest paying userbase, a distinct metric that is easy to forget.
- Chrono 14y ago
  It seems to have worked well in TF2 and MOBA players appears to be quite accepting of paying for cosmetic stuff. I hope for Valve's sake they will be able to pull it off as I really enjoy Dota 2.
gnufied 14y ago
Sure LoL is dominant game in North America and even EU and most importantly while LoL numbers can be tracked while original DOTA numbers aren't trackable. But if what I hear is true, then DOTA is huge in China and that player base is more likely to switch to Dota2 than LoL. With F2P model and upcoming LAN support, dota2 has pretty good chance in China and that itself can dwarf north american player base.
davidlumley 14y ago
I think it's less about Dota vs LoL, and more about Dota 2 vs HoN. While LoL appeals to a large amount of players who don't enjoy how hard the original DotA was, the competitive scene isn't there (for many reasons, but amongst them it's just doesn't require the same level of skill as HoN or DotA). Dota 2 needs to capture this competitive scene for it to be taken seriously. Dota 2 is also competing with the original DotA which still has a large following of people that haven't moved onto LoL because it's a different type of game, and haven't moved onto HoN because it isn't DotA. I'm very confident that Dota 2 will nail the competitive aspect, and that the loyal DotA fans will finally make the move, as will many HoN players. As I mentioned before, LoL is a very different game, catered for a more casual audience and I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find them co-existing. I'm also very glad that Valve have decided to skip the bullshit micro transactions for heroes that both Riot and S2 have implemented.

by soup10 14y ago

Smerity 14y ago

The playability has improved greatly since the original DotA. The UI for DotA 2 has been tweaked to be far more friendly to the novice player. Items used to be one of the most confusing elements of the game and has been fixed by giving each player a simple to follow suggested items guide. Starting a game is also incredibly streamlined. Three or four clicks, a "time until in game" suggestion and then that's it. They've also introduced a karma system where you reward or punish other players for their actions, including language, suicidal playing style and so on. I agree it'll be interesting to see how it competes with other games in the same genre but my money right now would be on DotA 2 simply as Valve really know how to make their games.

Chrono 14y ago
DotA was not at all novice friendly and I do believe DotA 2 has done a lot to reduce the barrier of entry. The UI is simply amazing at this point and all matchmaking based games should really look at DotA 2 before designing their UI, it is simply that good (in my opnion).

mquander 14y ago

I expect that LoL might retain a devoted playerbase, sort of like Runescape, but I definitely predict that Dota 2 will be making a ton of money and getting all the attention. - They seem serious about sponsoring tournaments and making it competitive and balanced - LoL turns off a lot of people with pay to win - Their interface and client is already holy shit way better, like night-and-day better, and I expect that it will just get more better, since they have more talent and more man-hours - They should know how to promote and run F2P games as well as Riot, since TF2 was a big success for them

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
When I worked on LoL, there was a lot of focus that it not be play to win (this right up to release). I wondered how that would turn out. What would you say is wrong? (I'm not a big fan of the genre [I'm not a pvp guy], so I haven't kept up on the game.)
- mquander 14y ago
  As a semi-casual player -- maybe I played 200 games ever -- I could not possibly play enough to earn many of the champions, so I get to choose between not having them or paying a ton of money (IIRC, many are like five to ten bucks a pop.) In addition, the newest champions are typically both the most powerful (at least for a while, until they are nerfed) and the most expensive, so those who pay get them first. Stronger players could also buy XP boosts, to level their summoner faster than I could, and IP boosts, to buy better runes than I could -- those are just strict improvements to their characters' stats with no caveats. The only way a non-payer could achieve parity on these metrics would be to play many hundreds or thousands of games.
  - astrobe_ 14y ago
    Upon reaching competitive level (level 30), you must have won a descent enough amount of free points (IP, as opposed to RP that one gets only by paying) to have a bunch of champions with appropriate runes. I think it is not really a problem, because you need to master the champions you play anyway to have some fun and win games. Then, if one really enjoys the game, one plays just for the fun and IPs can stack up without you noticing. The IP boosts thing is actually not a good idea: you reach higher levels artificially, without gaining real experience with the game and the champions you play. If you go straight to ranked games at level 30 by this mean, your ELO will probably be very poor; you'll be flamed by your team for your poor play, and that's a really bad experience (you'll have to learn to ignore clueless flamers though). It should also be noted that Riot is not very greedy: sometimes you get free IP boosts, and even free RP (not enough to immediately buy something though - well played). And upon a recent server incident they refunded me RPs without asking questions - even though they could see I never bought anything from them. The only things one cannot get just by playing are skins (custom outfits for the characters). As strange as it seems to me, it is actually the first thing that some players buy - instead of things that would improve their character's stats. It seems to me that it works in a similar way as shareware games works. I also think it is an interesting response to the problem of piracy. See for instance Blizzard with Starcraft 2, who apparently refuse to offer LAN mode just because of that.

sliverstorm 14y ago

Does Valve care if it can't make it to #1? More sophisticated arguments aside, having the largest userbase is not necessarily a win when following the f2p model. What you really want is the largest paying userbase, a distinct metric that is easy to forget.

Chrono 14y ago
It seems to have worked well in TF2 and MOBA players appears to be quite accepting of paying for cosmetic stuff. I hope for Valve's sake they will be able to pull it off as I really enjoy Dota 2.

gnufied 14y ago

Sure LoL is dominant game in North America and even EU and most importantly while LoL numbers can be tracked while original DOTA numbers aren't trackable. But if what I hear is true, then DOTA is huge in China and that player base is more likely to switch to Dota2 than LoL. With F2P model and upcoming LAN support, dota2 has pretty good chance in China and that itself can dwarf north american player base.

davidlumley 14y ago

I think it's less about Dota vs LoL, and more about Dota 2 vs HoN. While LoL appeals to a large amount of players who don't enjoy how hard the original DotA was, the competitive scene isn't there (for many reasons, but amongst them it's just doesn't require the same level of skill as HoN or DotA). Dota 2 needs to capture this competitive scene for it to be taken seriously. Dota 2 is also competing with the original DotA which still has a large following of people that haven't moved onto LoL because it's a different type of game, and haven't moved onto HoN because it isn't DotA. I'm very confident that Dota 2 will nail the competitive aspect, and that the loyal DotA fans will finally make the move, as will many HoN players. As I mentioned before, LoL is a very different game, catered for a more casual audience and I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find them co-existing. I'm also very glad that Valve have decided to skip the bullshit micro transactions for heroes that both Riot and S2 have implemented.