5 ms·

Whether we like it or not some facts: a) Biking as exists in the U.S. / Canada is a leisure-class demographic activity and not a "bread-and-butter" earning act

Whether we like it or not some facts: a) Biking as exists in the U.S. / Canada is a leisure-class demographic activity and not a "bread-and-butter" earning activity. If you did a survey of bicyclists you'd find they are of a certain tax bracket nowhere remotely close to low-income. Study after study shows they skew high income earners / well educated. b) The average non-wealthy American wants thinks his tax money is going to keeping the road infrastructure in good repair. c) Outside of well-heeled zip codes we are not going to see bike lane infrastructure be given priority over such more pressing concerns. d) We could all have great things if we were not warring all the time to get small things passed, much less a luxury ( in the scheme of things ) like bike lane infrastructure. I'm not even talking about the opposition from businesses here.[1] [1] S.F. Several businesses along Valencia Street have posted signs in their windows that read, “This Bike Lane Is Killing Small Businesses and Our Vibrant Community,” with a QR code for the San Francisco Small Business Coalition. | https://content.sfstandard.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/inlined03_20231204_valenciabikelane.jpg https://content.sfstandard.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/in... San Francisco Valencia Street Bike Lanes Bad for Business? https://sfstandard.com/2023/12/08/san-francisco-small-business-protests-valencia-street-bike-lane/ https://sfstandard.com/2023/12/08/san-francisco-small-busine... Cambridge, Mass ‘It's a Disaster': Cambridge Store Owners Say Bike Lanes Are Bad for Business https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/its-a-disaster-cambridge-store-owners-say-bike-lanes-are-bad-for-business/30753/ https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/its-a-disaster-cambridg...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
paulgb 2y ago
> If you did a survey of bicyclists you'd find they are of a certain tax bracket nowhere remotely close to low-income. Study after study shows they skew high income earners / well educated. This line of argument reminds me of the red-dots-airplane meme. In places where bad infrastructure makes cycling impractical as anything but a hobby, of course you mostly get lycra-wearing midlife crisis guys who do it as a hobby. In places where the infrastructure is actually good and safe, you get a whole spectrum of people riding.
- graftak 2y ago
  To add to this; in the Netherlands where I’m from there’s more bikes than people. Out of all the people I know the only person that does not ride a bike is my middle age father who owns a motorcycle. Even my nearly 90 year old grandma uses a tricycle (for safety) to do her grocery shopping.
Karrot_Kream 2y ago
Hm okay I looked at some facts [1] for the US and biking is fairly uniformly distributed between income brackets. The highest bracket is > $100,000 at 38% but the second highest is < $20,000 at 35%. So I think we're working with different facts here. [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1403896/cycling-participation-by-income-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1403896/cycling-particip...
- skulk 2y ago
  That's people who cycled "once" in the previous year. This discussion so about people who cycle to commute or otherwise regularly and I agree with the vibe that it's only for the rich or otherwise fortunate in the US. I don't have access to that data you linked but the headline suggests that it's more or less irrelevant to this discussion.
  - Karrot_Kream 2y ago
    Unfortunately I can't agree or argue against vibes so I'm not sure how to properly respond. Do I disagree on vibes? EDIT: To be a bit more productive about this, I referenced Guerra et al. [1] which shows that cycle commuting seems to be negatively correlated to income in the US and sharply negatively correlated with single vehicle ownership and positively correlated with being male. But this is just commuting and we know that there's more to transportation than just commuting and commuters tend to be more male as a whole anyway. [1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920920307410#f0010 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136192092...
    - skulk 2y ago
      thanks for the link, that article does challenge some of the views I had on cycle commuting and income. Where I live, there is definitely seems to be a positive correlation but reading the "archetypes" from that abstract made me realize that there my city is probably not typical.
      - bitbuilder 2y ago
ryan_lane 2y ago
These things are self-reinforcing because as things stand bikes can't be used for commuting by most people because the infrastructure doesn't exist. Make it easier and safer to bike, and you'll see the demographics shift. Another part of this problem is affordable housing. People can't live close to where they work. Reduce this problem along with improving biking infrastructure and you'll see an uptick in biking. "Several businesses along Valencia Street have posted signs in their windows that read[...]" Sure. Several businesses said the same thing about protected bus lanes, but studies have shown it's increased business for those on the path, because it makes it possible for _more_ customers to actually access their businesses. Cars are fundamentally worse than public transportation or biking for small businesses as a whole, as they reduce density, and further consolidation, which favors larger businesses and hurts small businesses. The problem is that business owners tend to be drivers and their biases don't line up with reality, which is why you tend to see their personal politics interfere with their business interests.
- wozniacki 2y ago
  This is one of those things that smacks of HN people thinking the world operates to their whims and fancies. Go over to Amsterdam and see how little bicycling actually gets done outside of the core that HN loves to throw up as this cycling utopia. Real people have real world needs. Bicycling meets very few of those. Especially in places that have barely four months of precipitation-free bicycling weather. Please stop thinking the world is like the urban cores of a handful of cities.
  - foco_tubi 2y ago
    Are you talking about bicycling as it exists in the US / Canada as you previously constrained your post to? or are we now talking about the usefulness of a bicycle globally? If Amsterdam doesn't do it for you, try Utrecht.
    - microtonal 2y ago
      I live in Groningen, NL and most people I know (of all income brackets) cycle to work if they have a job in or near the city. It’s the default form of transportation in this city (and often much faster than going by car). woziacki’s income bracket also doesn’t apply here. You can get a decent second-hand bike here for 200-300 Euro (more than an order of magnitude cheaper than a car) and maintenance is much cheaper than a car, plus no vehicle taxes, road insurance, etc.
occz 2y ago
Business opposition is completely irrelevant on account of businesses having been proved wrong time after time on the impacts of adding bike lanes/removing parking/etc on their streets. Consistently incorrect.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

paulgb 2y ago

> If you did a survey of bicyclists you'd find they are of a certain tax bracket nowhere remotely close to low-income. Study after study shows they skew high income earners / well educated. This line of argument reminds me of the red-dots-airplane meme. In places where bad infrastructure makes cycling impractical as anything but a hobby, of course you mostly get lycra-wearing midlife crisis guys who do it as a hobby. In places where the infrastructure is actually good and safe, you get a whole spectrum of people riding.

graftak 2y ago
To add to this; in the Netherlands where I’m from there’s more bikes than people. Out of all the people I know the only person that does not ride a bike is my middle age father who owns a motorcycle. Even my nearly 90 year old grandma uses a tricycle (for safety) to do her grocery shopping.

Karrot_Kream 2y ago

Hm okay I looked at some facts [1] for the US and biking is fairly uniformly distributed between income brackets. The highest bracket is > $100,000 at 38% but the second highest is < $20,000 at 35%. So I think we're working with different facts here. [1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1403896/cycling-participation-by-income-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1403896/cycling-particip...

skulk 2y ago
That's people who cycled "once" in the previous year. This discussion so about people who cycle to commute or otherwise regularly and I agree with the vibe that it's only for the rich or otherwise fortunate in the US. I don't have access to that data you linked but the headline suggests that it's more or less irrelevant to this discussion.
- Karrot_Kream 2y ago
  Unfortunately I can't agree or argue against vibes so I'm not sure how to properly respond. Do I disagree on vibes? EDIT: To be a bit more productive about this, I referenced Guerra et al. [1] which shows that cycle commuting seems to be negatively correlated to income in the US and sharply negatively correlated with single vehicle ownership and positively correlated with being male. But this is just commuting and we know that there's more to transportation than just commuting and commuters tend to be more male as a whole anyway. [1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920920307410#f0010 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136192092...
  - skulk 2y ago
    thanks for the link, that article does challenge some of the views I had on cycle commuting and income. Where I live, there is definitely seems to be a positive correlation but reading the "archetypes" from that abstract made me realize that there my city is probably not typical.
    - bitbuilder 2y ago

ryan_lane 2y ago

These things are self-reinforcing because as things stand bikes can't be used for commuting by most people because the infrastructure doesn't exist. Make it easier and safer to bike, and you'll see the demographics shift. Another part of this problem is affordable housing. People can't live close to where they work. Reduce this problem along with improving biking infrastructure and you'll see an uptick in biking. "Several businesses along Valencia Street have posted signs in their windows that read[...]" Sure. Several businesses said the same thing about protected bus lanes, but studies have shown it's increased business for those on the path, because it makes it possible for _more_ customers to actually access their businesses. Cars are fundamentally worse than public transportation or biking for small businesses as a whole, as they reduce density, and further consolidation, which favors larger businesses and hurts small businesses. The problem is that business owners tend to be drivers and their biases don't line up with reality, which is why you tend to see their personal politics interfere with their business interests.

wozniacki 2y ago
This is one of those things that smacks of HN people thinking the world operates to their whims and fancies. Go over to Amsterdam and see how little bicycling actually gets done outside of the core that HN loves to throw up as this cycling utopia. Real people have real world needs. Bicycling meets very few of those. Especially in places that have barely four months of precipitation-free bicycling weather. Please stop thinking the world is like the urban cores of a handful of cities.
- foco_tubi 2y ago
  Are you talking about bicycling as it exists in the US / Canada as you previously constrained your post to? or are we now talking about the usefulness of a bicycle globally? If Amsterdam doesn't do it for you, try Utrecht.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    I live in Groningen, NL and most people I know (of all income brackets) cycle to work if they have a job in or near the city. It’s the default form of transportation in this city (and often much faster than going by car). woziacki’s income bracket also doesn’t apply here. You can get a decent second-hand bike here for 200-300 Euro (more than an order of magnitude cheaper than a car) and maintenance is much cheaper than a car, plus no vehicle taxes, road insurance, etc.

occz 2y ago

Business opposition is completely irrelevant on account of businesses having been proved wrong time after time on the impacts of adding bike lanes/removing parking/etc on their streets. Consistently incorrect.