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The Elusive Byzantine Empire (2019)
- dimitrisnl 2y agoThe Byzantine Empire was pretty much the sole focus of my history education for years in school. Such a fascinating period, that gets overlooked so much.
- n1b0m 2y agoWhich country did you go to school?
- dimitrisnl 2y agoGreece.
- seydor 2y agoI don't understand why it's called 'elusive' since we have a lot of its history well written and generally it's not trying to hide itself. There was a certain animosity in early historians (hence why it was called Byzantine, even though it s basically the christian period of the Roman empire), but that was centuries ago. It's elusive only because people ignored it
- nemo 2y ago>To begin at the beginning is tricky. Did the empire begin when the emperor Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople in 324? When the city was consecrated by both pagan and Christian priests in May 330? Or did it begin in 395 when the two halves of the vast Roman empire were officially divided into East and West, or even later in the late 5th century when Rome was sacked, conquered and governed by the Goths, leaving Constantinople and the East as the sole heir of the empire? The article explained this here. It is elusive, when the Romans stop being Roman and start being Byzantine is a line drawn in the sand.
- panick21_ 2y agoRomans never called themselves Byzantine. What nonsense. There was the Roman Empire founded by Augustus and that entity survived continuously. The people who lived in these areas called themselves Romans for 1000+ years. The term 'roman' was still very much in use during the Greek Revolution. The capital had not been in Rome for a while, the capital going to Constantinople doesn't change anything. Neither does becoming Christian.
- nemo 2y agoYes, the Romans never called themselves Byzantine and personally I prefer sticking with the term "later Roman," "Eastern Roman", etc. but if you're speaking English with other English speaking people in the US then the term "Byzantine" is all they're going to understand. I collect Roman coins from the Republic, through the Imperial period, Dominate, later Roman, and into the late Eastern Roman stuff, my favorite that I'm working on is the Macedonian dynasty. I just got back from a trip to Istanbul and I was thrilled at seeing the Roman stuff, the Hagia Sophia is incredible, but even there in Istanbul the later Roman stuff was sometimes labelled "Byzantine" in write ups with English text. When I go looking for later Roman coins, I hit the "Byzantine" section. When I want to read more about the history of the Eastern Roman Empire after Constantine, the books I read usually have "Byzantine" or "Byzantium" in the title. While I personally avoid the term, one should be realistic about the world you live in and choose to communicate clearly rather than ideologically. With me, "Roman" is better, but in general parlance, it's not necessarily cut and dry. I said that the term "Byzantine" is a line drawn in the sand to emphasize that it's an arbitrary term that's not grounded in anything specific, for what it's worth.
- panick21_ 2y agoThe way you phrased it indicated that the Romans drew this line. Hence my response.
- asdasdsddd 2y agoThe "Byzantines" considered themselves roman until the very end. The name Byzantine was post humous
- farnerup 2y agoFrom reading Alf Henriksson's "Byzantinsk Historia", I gather that one problem with writing a history of Eastern Rome is that they wrote about war and politics and lots and lots about christian doctrine but precious little on other subjects, so we know all we care to know about various christian sects and which emperor assassinated which, but not much about art, science or daily life. Being emperor wasn't something you did for your health, by the way. The book ends by saying that only 34 out of 107 emperors died of natural causes.
- seydor 2y agotypical by roman standards
- bnralt 2y agoI wouldn’t say it’s ignored. Among the general population, the best known polities in the world from 500-1000 (which is a huge stretch of time) are probably the Byzantine Empire, the Tang Dynasty, the Carolingian Empire and the Caliphates.
- iisan7 2y agoI would argue it continues to be elusive, because it's hidden from plain view. For example byzantine ruins are often not restored, and not in demand by tourists. They are often removed to get to the classical bones beneath, or restored to a pre-byzantine state because that's where the interest lies. Western European funds and institutions have played a large role in archaeological activities in the eastern Mediterranean, and the byzantine period has little resonance with the philhellenes.
- bobosha 2y agoThe reign of Justinian is often regarded as one of the worst periods to be alive. In 532 AD, the Nika riots erupted, followed by the devastating plague of Justinian in 541-542 AD, which claimed nearly half of the population. This era was further marred by the famine resulting from the volcanic eruption in 536 AD.
- skybrian 2y agoI’m reading a history of the eastern Roman empire where the author points out that history keeps going after the plague without the consequences one would expect, which wouldn’t be true if it were as bad as some ancient writers claimed. So, it’s unclear but possibly somewhat exaggerated?
- its_ethan 2y agoI have it on good authority (twitter) that, in fact, 2024 is actually the worst period to be alive.
- bwanab 2y agoNot to mention that Justinian largely bankrupted the state's coffers that Anastasius had so carefully built up in his misguided attempt to reconquer the western part of the empire then proceeded to blame everything on his general Belisarius.
- panick21_ 2y agoWhy was it 'misguided'. Saying it was 'misguided' is only evident historically. The Roman empire had fractured many times before. And has always been put together. So why would the Roman government think it couldn't be done again? And he was also pretty successful in doing it, returning North Africa, parts of Spain and most of Italy. Its just that further Germanic invasion came and reversed some of those gains. And the Persian were a contentious problem as well.
- nemo 2y agoThe Gothic Wars left Italy devastated and earned the long term enmity of people living on the peninsula who sometimes preferred the Germanic warlords to the bloodless sociopaths ruling out of Constantinople, opening a wedge that would continue to sow division over the centuries. Those wars depopulated the remnants of Rome that had persisted through the prior sacks, and left Italy even more defenseless against future invasions. Justinian had to destroy Rome to save it.
- shawn_w 2y agoA Short History of Byzantium by John Julius Norwich is a good overview of the empire if you'd like to learn more about it.
- optimalsolver 2y agoWorth checking out is the excellent and comprehensive History of Byzantine podcast: https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/ https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/
- bwanab 2y agoRobin (the podcaster) specifically modeled this podcast on Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcast. I highly recommend both.
- peterhull90 2y agoCurrently reading "Byzantium: The Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire" by Judith Herrin[0] It's very interesting, a sort of missing piece of history from my point of view. At school those centuries was just skipped as 'the dark ages.' [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Herrin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Herrin
- rdtsc 2y agoSomewhat related, a while back Cappella Romana, a vocal ensemble choir with some researchers had tried to recreate the sounds of Hagia Sophia. They mapped the interior to model the reverberations properly. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/arts/music/hagia-sophia-acoustics-music.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/arts/music/hagia-sophia-a... (https://archive.is/VHf8d https://archive.is/VHf8d) Example of their performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VrJ8XOwJzw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VrJ8XOwJzw
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago> Most will think of Constantinople, which used to be Byzantium and is now Istanbul When I think of "Byzantium," I always think of Saoirse Ronan and Gemma Atherton, for some reason...