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I think the truckers were idiots and that their protest made no sense and probably made life for the average Ottawa resident very annoying at the time. I also t

I think the truckers were idiots and that their protest made no sense and probably made life for the average Ottawa resident very annoying at the time. I also think that freezing their bank accounts was huge government overreach and I'm sad that the consequence to the government for doing it have been basically non-existent. In both Canada and the US each "side" loves ratcheting up government power against what they perceive as their political enemies. It's going to end in tears.

whatwhaaaaat 2y ago
[flagged]
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  I don't think the "untested"* COVID-19 vaccine was given to anyone in the US, so if you "vote democrat" you wouldn't have been in any danger – except if you chose not to vaccinate yourself. Are you talking about something else? *: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COV... actually was tested: they had suspicions it caused blood clots for a few people, then they found some slightly more suspicious data. Even then, taking it was better than taking nothing for the average person – just, there were other, safer vaccines available, so nobody informed would want to take it. Its administration was halted in most countries it was approved in, once there was some evidence of harm. But the correlation's still so weak that we're not really sure it's the vaccine causing it, or even if the effect is real. Blood clot risk is still higher if you get COVID-19 than if you get this vaccine. In general, the worst thing an uncontaminated vaccine can give you is mild symptoms of the disease it protects you against. We are very, very, very cautious about such things (I'd argue, too cautious, but when I take my utilitarian-debate-club hat off, I am similarly paranoid, so I don't begrudge them overmuch).
  - Amezarak 2y ago
    But of course there's different demographics; nobody is the average person. And even people that had already been infected with COVID-19 were required to get the vaccine. But it's also interesting to think about it from the perspective of immune system compartments: the vaccine is effective in preventing severe illness and death because it's injected. But people with mild to asymptomatic cases only ever "fight it" in their mucosal immune compartment, which doesn't share antibody recipes, so people who have only received a vaccine can still spread COVID-19, because the mucosal immune compartment is not trained by the vaccine. (Hopefully, there'll be an intranasal vaccine soon.) In general, this may also be related to your general health; the stronger your immune system is overall, the less likely you're going to develop a severe infection (barring a thousand other variables) because the virus never makes it in real numbers to your bloodstream, but if you do get a severe infection the immune reaction by itself is likely to be dangerous. At least, that's why I assume two COVID infections prior to vaccination were barely noticeable, while the vaccination itself knocked me on my ass for days and also gave me a really weird neurological episode. If I had not been required to, I would not have gotten a vaccine, since I already had a verified COVID-19 infection and recovery. So unfortunately, our policy made me pretty sick for basically zero gain, and I knew going into it there was no real upside for me (but I didn't expect the downside.) ed: it's also worth noting that "in general" is not very useful; in this case we're talking about vaccines leveraging new technology to deliver their payload. It's not implausible to believe that the LNPs are not safe - it took several years to identify LNPs that were not obviously toxic, and it would not be wild to imagine that years down the line we find the LNPs used in the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are unsafe in the sense that you might be 20% more likely to develop RARE_CANCER_X 15 years from now. Great article on their development here: https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8?PageSpeed=noscript https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-li...
- sqeaky 2y ago
  > force me to take an untested shot You are simply not operating in reality. It wasn't untested, you weren't forced. You don't know how to model trust and because of that you distrust experts even trustworthy experts.
  - tracker1 2y ago
    Not forced, meaning you may be fired and potentially unable to find work.
    - sqeaky 2y ago
      Somehow the people who often take umbrage at this are also the same sorts who are free market absolutists or oppose public health care, and then we are here on a VC discussion board which leans that way frequently. Explain to me how willingness to take disease preventing treatment isn't just a feature of Whatwhaaaaat as an employee, that makes one more or less desirable on the free market? We are able free to work "at will" most places and any employer who will have you based on your marketability and desirability. Whatwhaaaaat could even start your own company where you mandated people not be vaccinated (and then die the first time someone sneezes). More seriously, because this is a serious topic even if Whatwhaaaaat isn't a serious person: We should all have a right to be healthy, where such things are within our power to understand and effect. Whatwhaaaaat should have a right to opt out (even if I think it is childishly stupid). The only way to make those both fit in reality is to have those who opt out of the incredibly but not quite perfectly safe and life saving vaccine in contradiction to all the evidence, is to have them opt out of activities where safety is desired by the majority. So you have a choice: opt-out of both the vaccine and some professional activities, or opt-in to both. Note how this isn't a choice that Whatwhaaaaat, as a possible unknowing carrier of covid, is willing or even capable of offering immune compromised people in a work place. This is the only sensible way to structure a society that isn't literally forcing vaccines on people like Whatwhaaaaat.
      - whatwhaaaaat 2y ago
        You can keep playing tribalism all you want. I voted in the primaries for Bernie. I’ve been advocating for a public option my whole life. I’d be willing to bet I am more active in progressive causes than you are. Everything in America is tied to one’s employment. It was take the shot or starve. Luckily I’m a decent enough engineer to be able to say go fuck yourself and they had no choice but to keep me. MANY of my co workers were not in that position. I will never vote for democrats again :-)

whatwhaaaaat 2y ago

[flagged]

wizzwizz4 2y ago
I don't think the "untested"* COVID-19 vaccine was given to anyone in the US, so if you "vote democrat" you wouldn't have been in any danger – except if you chose not to vaccinate yourself. Are you talking about something else? *: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COV... actually was tested: they had suspicions it caused blood clots for a few people, then they found some slightly more suspicious data. Even then, taking it was better than taking nothing for the average person – just, there were other, safer vaccines available, so nobody informed would want to take it. Its administration was halted in most countries it was approved in, once there was some evidence of harm. But the correlation's still so weak that we're not really sure it's the vaccine causing it, or even if the effect is real. Blood clot risk is still higher if you get COVID-19 than if you get this vaccine. In general, the worst thing an uncontaminated vaccine can give you is mild symptoms of the disease it protects you against. We are very, very, very cautious about such things (I'd argue, too cautious, but when I take my utilitarian-debate-club hat off, I am similarly paranoid, so I don't begrudge them overmuch).
- Amezarak 2y ago
  But of course there's different demographics; nobody is the average person. And even people that had already been infected with COVID-19 were required to get the vaccine. But it's also interesting to think about it from the perspective of immune system compartments: the vaccine is effective in preventing severe illness and death because it's injected. But people with mild to asymptomatic cases only ever "fight it" in their mucosal immune compartment, which doesn't share antibody recipes, so people who have only received a vaccine can still spread COVID-19, because the mucosal immune compartment is not trained by the vaccine. (Hopefully, there'll be an intranasal vaccine soon.) In general, this may also be related to your general health; the stronger your immune system is overall, the less likely you're going to develop a severe infection (barring a thousand other variables) because the virus never makes it in real numbers to your bloodstream, but if you do get a severe infection the immune reaction by itself is likely to be dangerous. At least, that's why I assume two COVID infections prior to vaccination were barely noticeable, while the vaccination itself knocked me on my ass for days and also gave me a really weird neurological episode. If I had not been required to, I would not have gotten a vaccine, since I already had a verified COVID-19 infection and recovery. So unfortunately, our policy made me pretty sick for basically zero gain, and I knew going into it there was no real upside for me (but I didn't expect the downside.) ed: it's also worth noting that "in general" is not very useful; in this case we're talking about vaccines leveraging new technology to deliver their payload. It's not implausible to believe that the LNPs are not safe - it took several years to identify LNPs that were not obviously toxic, and it would not be wild to imagine that years down the line we find the LNPs used in the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are unsafe in the sense that you might be 20% more likely to develop RARE_CANCER_X 15 years from now. Great article on their development here: https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8?PageSpeed=noscript https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-li...
sqeaky 2y ago
> force me to take an untested shot You are simply not operating in reality. It wasn't untested, you weren't forced. You don't know how to model trust and because of that you distrust experts even trustworthy experts.
- tracker1 2y ago
  Not forced, meaning you may be fired and potentially unable to find work.
  - sqeaky 2y ago
    Somehow the people who often take umbrage at this are also the same sorts who are free market absolutists or oppose public health care, and then we are here on a VC discussion board which leans that way frequently. Explain to me how willingness to take disease preventing treatment isn't just a feature of Whatwhaaaaat as an employee, that makes one more or less desirable on the free market? We are able free to work "at will" most places and any employer who will have you based on your marketability and desirability. Whatwhaaaaat could even start your own company where you mandated people not be vaccinated (and then die the first time someone sneezes). More seriously, because this is a serious topic even if Whatwhaaaaat isn't a serious person: We should all have a right to be healthy, where such things are within our power to understand and effect. Whatwhaaaaat should have a right to opt out (even if I think it is childishly stupid). The only way to make those both fit in reality is to have those who opt out of the incredibly but not quite perfectly safe and life saving vaccine in contradiction to all the evidence, is to have them opt out of activities where safety is desired by the majority. So you have a choice: opt-out of both the vaccine and some professional activities, or opt-in to both. Note how this isn't a choice that Whatwhaaaaat, as a possible unknowing carrier of covid, is willing or even capable of offering immune compromised people in a work place. This is the only sensible way to structure a society that isn't literally forcing vaccines on people like Whatwhaaaaat.
    - whatwhaaaaat 2y ago
      You can keep playing tribalism all you want. I voted in the primaries for Bernie. I’ve been advocating for a public option my whole life. I’d be willing to bet I am more active in progressive causes than you are. Everything in America is tied to one’s employment. It was take the shot or starve. Luckily I’m a decent enough engineer to be able to say go fuck yourself and they had no choice but to keep me. MANY of my co workers were not in that position. I will never vote for democrats again :-)