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I have family who lived in Arizona for awhile, and I visited them. I was always confused why everything in Arizona wasn't covered in solar panels, because it se

I have family who lived in Arizona for awhile, and I visited them. I was always confused why everything in Arizona wasn't covered in solar panels, because it seemed like ideal solar energy scenario. Of course, with these kinds of things there's often some thing you don't think of at first but it just seemed like every single parking shade and roof could be covered in solar and it would work very very well. Not only is solar radiation intense there, but it's a daily expectation, and the trees to the extent they exist (mostly mesquite) generally don't grow higher than the surrounding buildings.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
It's mostly the capital expense of setting it all up. And about 50% of that expense these days are labor costs. And finding enough labor to do what you're describing is currently challenging.
- reducesuffering 2y ago
  California did way more installation with higher labor costs and lower solar potential though.
- hedora 2y ago
  You're talking about a part of the country with chronic job shortages. Concretely, they have a low employment rate and a high number of unemployed people.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    The unemployment rate in AZ is 3.6%. There are roughly 133k unemployed people there. Many of them likely lack the skills and/or physical ability to do solar PV installs.
    - sundaeofshock 2y ago
      Skills can be acquired through proper training. Maybe even in the job. We used to do that…
- black_puppydog 2y ago
  Solar is being built quite quickly these days, and in areas that have much less expected solar influx. So labor isn't it.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    The GP was commenting about the lack of widespread solar in AZ, which is quite different from large scale solar in AZ. The reasons why you don't see as much small scale (residential/commercial property) solar PV in AZ (or NM, where I live) are different from the reasons why solar is being built quite quickly these days.
- napierzaza 2y ago
  [dead]
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  Per MWh in a place with the solar radiation of Arizona, the labor cost is lower for solar than a new gas peaker.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    The GP was retrospectively asking "why is there so little solar PV in AZ?" The question was not "what would be cheaper to install right now, solar PV or gas?"
    - onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
      > And finding enough labor to do what you're describing is currently challenging. You brought up the challenge. It's less of a challenge than adding new gas-powered MWh.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
        Not sure about that. The latter is even more capital intensive, but you probably wouldn't look to hire from within AZ for that project, and so the labor pool gets bigger. You're going to be hire a substantial contractor for a project like that. The labor for residential/commercial solar PV comes mostly from the local population, and each project is doable with small crews. So I don't know for sure which one is more challenging. Very different challenges, certainly.
secabeen 2y ago
A big factor is that battery storage wasn't there technologically until recently. You could cover Arizona in solar, but that just pushes the price of power down during daytime hours to $0. It doesn't help during the pinch times of late afternoon through sundown, when everything is still really hot, but solar produces significantly less. We need tons of batteries to store the excess solar from mid-day until the evening. Those batteries are being built very fast, but at the scale we need them, it will still take years. This story is also a good illustration of why local government matters. National races get most of the media attention, but your personal day-to-day is more affected by your local government.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  It's politics [1] [2]. > Republicans expanded their majority on the utility commission to 4-1 in 2022 and have taken steps since then to reverse clean energy mandates. Most recently, the panel voted 4-1 to sunset rules that required regulated utilities to set energy efficiency requirements and get 15 percent of their energy from renewable resources by 2025. > This story is also a good illustration of why local government matters. National races get most of the media attention, but your personal day-to-day is more affected by your local government. Arizona is getting what it voted for. At the generation capacity amounts needed to replace fossil generation (a handful of GWs, 15k-20k acres of leased land assuming ~4.5k-5k acres per GW of solar capacity) [3], this is simply a lack of desire and will. Someone else in the thread mentioned peaker plants; utility scale batteries are cheaper than peakers in most (but not all) cases [4] [5]. [1] https://www.politico.com/newsletters/power-switch/2024/02/12/arizonas-180-on-renewables-00140940 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/power-switch/2024/02/12... [2] https://www.eenews.net/articles/can-arizona-revive-its-bipartisan-clean-power-mandate/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/can-arizona-revive-its-bipar... [3] https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/US-SW-AZPS?wind=false&solar=false https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/US-SW-AZPS?wind=false&s... [4] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/04/12/battery-storage-systems-30-cheaper-than-rival-gas-peaker-plants-for-firming-renewables/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/04/12/battery-storage-syste... [5] https://www.cesa.org/replacing-fossil-fueled-peaker-power-plants-with-battery-energy-storage/ https://www.cesa.org/replacing-fossil-fueled-peaker-power-pl...
tbrownaw 2y ago
> just seemed like every single parking shade and roof could be covered in solar Climbing around putting panels on top of everything is a lot more work than just putting them in a big field on the ground.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  Could be less environmental impact to install on land that is already used. The desert is habitat for all sorts of species of various level of endangerment.
- ein0p 2y ago
  And then cleaning them every once in a while. That’s why I don’t have any - cleaning the gutters on my house is $400 nowadays ($300 before Biden). Cleaning solar is probably twice that, and it’d need to be done every year - there’s a lot of vegetation around and everything is covered with pollen every spring and with leaves every fall. Even once-a-year cleaning would be like half of my yearly electricity bill.
- onlypassingthru 2y ago
  Just having rooftop solar panels on a building actually passively cools the roof underneath since you're basically building a shade structure for the building. The initial install is certainly more work than putting the panels in a field but the bonus cooling from the free shade may offset or negate the additional expense.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

It's mostly the capital expense of setting it all up. And about 50% of that expense these days are labor costs. And finding enough labor to do what you're describing is currently challenging.

reducesuffering 2y ago
California did way more installation with higher labor costs and lower solar potential though.
hedora 2y ago
You're talking about a part of the country with chronic job shortages. Concretely, they have a low employment rate and a high number of unemployed people.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  The unemployment rate in AZ is 3.6%. There are roughly 133k unemployed people there. Many of them likely lack the skills and/or physical ability to do solar PV installs.
  - sundaeofshock 2y ago
    Skills can be acquired through proper training. Maybe even in the job. We used to do that…
black_puppydog 2y ago
Solar is being built quite quickly these days, and in areas that have much less expected solar influx. So labor isn't it.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  The GP was commenting about the lack of widespread solar in AZ, which is quite different from large scale solar in AZ. The reasons why you don't see as much small scale (residential/commercial property) solar PV in AZ (or NM, where I live) are different from the reasons why solar is being built quite quickly these days.
napierzaza 2y ago
[dead]
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
Per MWh in a place with the solar radiation of Arizona, the labor cost is lower for solar than a new gas peaker.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  The GP was retrospectively asking "why is there so little solar PV in AZ?" The question was not "what would be cheaper to install right now, solar PV or gas?"
  - onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
    > And finding enough labor to do what you're describing is currently challenging. You brought up the challenge. It's less of a challenge than adding new gas-powered MWh.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      Not sure about that. The latter is even more capital intensive, but you probably wouldn't look to hire from within AZ for that project, and so the labor pool gets bigger. You're going to be hire a substantial contractor for a project like that. The labor for residential/commercial solar PV comes mostly from the local population, and each project is doable with small crews. So I don't know for sure which one is more challenging. Very different challenges, certainly.

secabeen 2y ago

A big factor is that battery storage wasn't there technologically until recently. You could cover Arizona in solar, but that just pushes the price of power down during daytime hours to $0. It doesn't help during the pinch times of late afternoon through sundown, when everything is still really hot, but solar produces significantly less. We need tons of batteries to store the excess solar from mid-day until the evening. Those batteries are being built very fast, but at the scale we need them, it will still take years. This story is also a good illustration of why local government matters. National races get most of the media attention, but your personal day-to-day is more affected by your local government.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
It's politics [1] [2]. > Republicans expanded their majority on the utility commission to 4-1 in 2022 and have taken steps since then to reverse clean energy mandates. Most recently, the panel voted 4-1 to sunset rules that required regulated utilities to set energy efficiency requirements and get 15 percent of their energy from renewable resources by 2025. > This story is also a good illustration of why local government matters. National races get most of the media attention, but your personal day-to-day is more affected by your local government. Arizona is getting what it voted for. At the generation capacity amounts needed to replace fossil generation (a handful of GWs, 15k-20k acres of leased land assuming ~4.5k-5k acres per GW of solar capacity) [3], this is simply a lack of desire and will. Someone else in the thread mentioned peaker plants; utility scale batteries are cheaper than peakers in most (but not all) cases [4] [5]. [1] https://www.politico.com/newsletters/power-switch/2024/02/12/arizonas-180-on-renewables-00140940 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/power-switch/2024/02/12... [2] https://www.eenews.net/articles/can-arizona-revive-its-bipartisan-clean-power-mandate/ https://www.eenews.net/articles/can-arizona-revive-its-bipar... [3] https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/US-SW-AZPS?wind=false&solar=false https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/US-SW-AZPS?wind=false&s... [4] https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/04/12/battery-storage-systems-30-cheaper-than-rival-gas-peaker-plants-for-firming-renewables/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/04/12/battery-storage-syste... [5] https://www.cesa.org/replacing-fossil-fueled-peaker-power-plants-with-battery-energy-storage/ https://www.cesa.org/replacing-fossil-fueled-peaker-power-pl...

tbrownaw 2y ago

> just seemed like every single parking shade and roof could be covered in solar Climbing around putting panels on top of everything is a lot more work than just putting them in a big field on the ground.

PaulHoule 2y ago
Could be less environmental impact to install on land that is already used. The desert is habitat for all sorts of species of various level of endangerment.
ein0p 2y ago
And then cleaning them every once in a while. That’s why I don’t have any - cleaning the gutters on my house is $400 nowadays ($300 before Biden). Cleaning solar is probably twice that, and it’d need to be done every year - there’s a lot of vegetation around and everything is covered with pollen every spring and with leaves every fall. Even once-a-year cleaning would be like half of my yearly electricity bill.
onlypassingthru 2y ago
Just having rooftop solar panels on a building actually passively cools the roof underneath since you're basically building a shade structure for the building. The initial install is certainly more work than putting the panels in a field but the bonus cooling from the free shade may offset or negate the additional expense.