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The Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime are great EV's (PHEVs), they have some of the best-in-class efficiency metrics (on either form of fuel). And their child company

The Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime are great EV's (PHEVs), they have some of the best-in-class efficiency metrics (on either form of fuel). And their child company (Subaru, 20% ownership) is doing a full EV (Solterra) Toyota isn't "avoiding" EVs, they just aren't rushing to put out a bunch of first-gen-tech EV-only cars. Which seems perfectly fine -- if you want those, Chevrolet and Tesla and Nissan would be happy to sell you those.

CalRobert 2y ago
Are we not well past first gen by now? The Tesla roadster or GM EV1 were ages ago
natch 2y ago
Legacy auto makers claiming that ICE hybrids are EVs is very disingenuous.
- maxsilver 2y ago
  > Legacy auto makers claiming that ICE hybrids are EVs is very disingenuous. Calling a traditional ICE hybrid an "EV" is disingenuous, completely agree. Calling a PHEV an EV is 100% totally fair. I drive a used 2017 Chevy Volt (a "legacy auto makers" PHEV). I am fortunate enough to have a regular garage with a standard (120v/12a level 1) outlet + charger, and I only charge the car in at night while I'm sleeping. The car records all usage on all fuels for it's entire lifetime. Over the past 78,000 miles, my lifetime MPG on the vehicle is like 145mpg, despite the fact that I take a few long trips (multi-states away) each year. The vast vast majority of miles all end up being electric-only. Yes, some people buy a PHEV and then never charge them, and yes, this defeats the whole point. But it's perfectly fair to call a PHEV an EV. Under normal regular intended usage, they're running on electricity-only anywhere from 50% to 80%+ of all total miles driven.
SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
The problem that Toyota has and will have increasingly is that they released their "first-gen-tech EV-only car", the bZ4X in 2024, which is much later than other EV makers did. And that's probably why most think that it's a very bad EV. The competition is several iterations ahead and seems set to remain so.
greenthrow 2y ago
Hybrids are not EVs. Even plug in hybrids spend most of their lives burning gas. The Solterra is the same car as the Toyota bZ4X and Lexus RZ450e. It is a very mediocre EV, far behind its competition in efficiency and charging. It demonstrates as well as anything Toyota's absolute refusal to take EVs seriously.
- maxsilver 2y ago
  > Even plug in hybrids spend most of their lives burning gas. They don't. PHEV's spend 50%-80% of their time on electric only, if you use them properly. (Just plug them in once each evening). > The Solterra (snip) is a very mediocre EV, far behind its competition in efficiency and charging. The Solterra is roughly competitive with a Tesla Model 3 (Standard Range) or a Chevy Bolt. Which is fine, they're all reasonable EVs, but I'd still call all of these "first generation consumer EVs". We're at the "everyone has a BlackBerry, the iPhone hasn't been released yet" stage of automotive EVs, in my humble opinion.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > They don't. PHEV's spend 50%-80% of their time on electric only, if you use them properly. If. And since that "if" is false, then the "they don't" is also false. https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/yet-another-study-shows-plug-in-hybrids-arent-as-clean-as-we-thought/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/yet-another-study-shows-plug-...
  - greenthrow 2y ago
    People don't use Plugin Hybrids that way, though. Studies have shown people don't plug them in. Which is exactly what you should expect because someone buys a hybrid because they want to continue driving an ICE car.
r00fus 2y ago
Your comment would make sense in, say, 2015. It's nearly 10 years later and Toyota has exactly one (not well regarded) EV in their roster. No, Toyota is all in for fossil fuels. Even hydrogen cells (while they burn clean) are only generated from nat gas currently (and even more limited than EV charging stations).
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  > (hydrogen) is even more limited than EV charging stations The situation is even more unequal than it would seem based on "count EV charging stations vs hydrogen charging stations", since many EVs are charged at home on L2 chargers, and any electrical plug that's within reach of a vehicle using an extension cable is a potential EV trickle charger, for emergency use or convenient top-up. Electricity infrastructure is very widespread. Hydrogen remains hard to work with and thus far more centralised.

CalRobert 2y ago

Are we not well past first gen by now? The Tesla roadster or GM EV1 were ages ago

natch 2y ago

Legacy auto makers claiming that ICE hybrids are EVs is very disingenuous.

maxsilver 2y ago
> Legacy auto makers claiming that ICE hybrids are EVs is very disingenuous. Calling a traditional ICE hybrid an "EV" is disingenuous, completely agree. Calling a PHEV an EV is 100% totally fair. I drive a used 2017 Chevy Volt (a "legacy auto makers" PHEV). I am fortunate enough to have a regular garage with a standard (120v/12a level 1) outlet + charger, and I only charge the car in at night while I'm sleeping. The car records all usage on all fuels for it's entire lifetime. Over the past 78,000 miles, my lifetime MPG on the vehicle is like 145mpg, despite the fact that I take a few long trips (multi-states away) each year. The vast vast majority of miles all end up being electric-only. Yes, some people buy a PHEV and then never charge them, and yes, this defeats the whole point. But it's perfectly fair to call a PHEV an EV. Under normal regular intended usage, they're running on electricity-only anywhere from 50% to 80%+ of all total miles driven.

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago

The problem that Toyota has and will have increasingly is that they released their "first-gen-tech EV-only car", the bZ4X in 2024, which is much later than other EV makers did. And that's probably why most think that it's a very bad EV. The competition is several iterations ahead and seems set to remain so.

greenthrow 2y ago

Hybrids are not EVs. Even plug in hybrids spend most of their lives burning gas. The Solterra is the same car as the Toyota bZ4X and Lexus RZ450e. It is a very mediocre EV, far behind its competition in efficiency and charging. It demonstrates as well as anything Toyota's absolute refusal to take EVs seriously.

maxsilver 2y ago
> Even plug in hybrids spend most of their lives burning gas. They don't. PHEV's spend 50%-80% of their time on electric only, if you use them properly. (Just plug them in once each evening). > The Solterra (snip) is a very mediocre EV, far behind its competition in efficiency and charging. The Solterra is roughly competitive with a Tesla Model 3 (Standard Range) or a Chevy Bolt. Which is fine, they're all reasonable EVs, but I'd still call all of these "first generation consumer EVs". We're at the "everyone has a BlackBerry, the iPhone hasn't been released yet" stage of automotive EVs, in my humble opinion.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  > They don't. PHEV's spend 50%-80% of their time on electric only, if you use them properly. If. And since that "if" is false, then the "they don't" is also false. https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/yet-another-study-shows-plug-in-hybrids-arent-as-clean-as-we-thought/ https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/yet-another-study-shows-plug-...
- greenthrow 2y ago
  People don't use Plugin Hybrids that way, though. Studies have shown people don't plug them in. Which is exactly what you should expect because someone buys a hybrid because they want to continue driving an ICE car.

r00fus 2y ago

Your comment would make sense in, say, 2015. It's nearly 10 years later and Toyota has exactly one (not well regarded) EV in their roster. No, Toyota is all in for fossil fuels. Even hydrogen cells (while they burn clean) are only generated from nat gas currently (and even more limited than EV charging stations).

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
> (hydrogen) is even more limited than EV charging stations The situation is even more unequal than it would seem based on "count EV charging stations vs hydrogen charging stations", since many EVs are charged at home on L2 chargers, and any electrical plug that's within reach of a vehicle using an extension cable is a potential EV trickle charger, for emergency use or convenient top-up. Electricity infrastructure is very widespread. Hydrogen remains hard to work with and thus far more centralised.