4 ms·

You only need about 35 hp to keep a 4000lb car cruising at 70 mph. The idea? Run the powertrain totally on battery, then toss in a 50 or 70 hp engine just to ch

by keploy 2y ago

You only need about 35 hp to keep a 4000lb car cruising at 70 mph. The idea? Run the powertrain totally on battery, then toss in a 50 or 70 hp engine just to charge it up. It's flipping the hybrid script: instead of using electric for low demand and gas for more juice, it's electric for the main power and gas just for the battery. This puts the heavy lifting on the 90% efficient powertrain and eases up on the super inefficient 25% one. Toyota should've been all over this back in 2015.

voisin 2y ago
Stellantis is doing this for an upcoming Ramcharger reboot.
TheJayroro 2y ago
Isn't this the same thing Chevy did with the Volt?
- soganess 2y ago
  You're right, it is. They dropped it when they released the Bolt, or more correctly, Chevy went all electric with the Bolt.
alephnerd 2y ago
> Toyota should've been all over this back in 2015. METI (the Japanese Ministry that develops Japan's R&D strategy) is hesitant about using lithium ion battery technology due to lithium dependency issues and memories about the impact the 1970s oil shock had on Japan [0][1], along with IP issues. This is why Japan has been pushing it's domestic champions to research Hydrogen Fuel Cells [2] and solid state batteries [3] This is also the strategy that Toyota adopted [4][5]. [0] - https://www.sojitz.com/history/en/era/05/ https://www.sojitz.com/history/en/era/05/ [1] - https://www.ide.go.jp/library/English/Publish/Periodicals/De/pdf/76_04_01.pdf https://www.ide.go.jp/library/English/Publish/Periodicals/De... [2] - https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso_seisaku/pdf/20230606_5.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso... [3] - https://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/pdf/0520_001a.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/pdf/0520_001a.pdf [4] - https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330548.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330548.html [5] - https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330500.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330500.html
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Lithium can be pulled from seawater. Japan might have to pay more for their lithium, but they can never be cut off from it.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Seawater based lithium extraction is very cost inefficient as it's basically just electrolysis. This means the only options long term are Hydrogen and Sodium Solid State. I'd recommend reading the Japanese government docs and presentations I linked above as they explain why Japan and it's companies are doing what they are doing.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      $5/kg, 10-50 kg per vehicle. Not an obstacle. https://cen.acs.org/materials/inorganic-chemistry/Can-seawater-give-us-lithium-to-meet-our-battery-needs/99/i36 https://cen.acs.org/materials/inorganic-chemistry/Can-seawat...
- pjc50 2y ago
  Ironically this keeps them dependent on oil. And natural gas; it's clear from https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso_seisaku/pdf/20230606_5.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso... that the plan is to get hydrogen from natural gas, with electrolysis as a thin renewable figleaf over the issue of CO2 emissions. (don't trust any source that describes hydrogen as an "energy source". There is no naturally occurring hydrogen reserve. It is not a source.) They might be in a better place if TEPCO hadn't messed up their nuclear plant designs in a tsunami zone.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Mandatum 2y ago
You don’t think this wasn’t considered? Did you take into consideration optimal load efficiencies? What about the total cost of ownership for the energy conversion from ICE? In 2015, hybrids were already well optimised for the current technology limitations.
xnx 2y ago
I believe this approach is called series (or serial?) hybrid and is used by the BMW i3, which was introduced in 2013.
- frizkie 2y ago
  Yeah, I’m fairly sure the “range extender” (engine) component was optional, not sure what the take rate was. A small percentage of an already infrequently-purchased car.
throwaway4good 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner–Porsche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner–Porsche Lohner–Porsche is a term encompassing several electric vehicles designed by Ferdinand Porsche and manufactured at Lohner-Werke in the early 1900s. They include the first hybrid electric vehicle and the first commercial hub motor car. The hybrid "Mixed" or "Mixte" racecars are powered by a gasoline engine which drives four electric motors, one in each wheel hub. The battery-powered "Touring" or "Chaise" commercial cars utilize only two front-wheel hub motors.

by keploy 2y ago

voisin 2y ago

Stellantis is doing this for an upcoming Ramcharger reboot.

TheJayroro 2y ago

Isn't this the same thing Chevy did with the Volt?

soganess 2y ago
You're right, it is. They dropped it when they released the Bolt, or more correctly, Chevy went all electric with the Bolt.

alephnerd 2y ago

> Toyota should've been all over this back in 2015. METI (the Japanese Ministry that develops Japan's R&D strategy) is hesitant about using lithium ion battery technology due to lithium dependency issues and memories about the impact the 1970s oil shock had on Japan [0][1], along with IP issues. This is why Japan has been pushing it's domestic champions to research Hydrogen Fuel Cells [2] and solid state batteries [3] This is also the strategy that Toyota adopted [4][5]. [0] - https://www.sojitz.com/history/en/era/05/ https://www.sojitz.com/history/en/era/05/ [1] - https://www.ide.go.jp/library/English/Publish/Periodicals/De/pdf/76_04_01.pdf https://www.ide.go.jp/library/English/Publish/Periodicals/De... [2] - https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso_seisaku/pdf/20230606_5.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso... [3] - https://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/pdf/0520_001a.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/pdf/0520_001a.pdf [4] - https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330548.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330548.html [5] - https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330500.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330500.html

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Lithium can be pulled from seawater. Japan might have to pay more for their lithium, but they can never be cut off from it.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Seawater based lithium extraction is very cost inefficient as it's basically just electrolysis. This means the only options long term are Hydrogen and Sodium Solid State. I'd recommend reading the Japanese government docs and presentations I linked above as they explain why Japan and it's companies are doing what they are doing.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    $5/kg, 10-50 kg per vehicle. Not an obstacle. https://cen.acs.org/materials/inorganic-chemistry/Can-seawater-give-us-lithium-to-meet-our-battery-needs/99/i36 https://cen.acs.org/materials/inorganic-chemistry/Can-seawat...
pjc50 2y ago
Ironically this keeps them dependent on oil. And natural gas; it's clear from https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso_seisaku/pdf/20230606_5.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso... that the plan is to get hydrogen from natural gas, with electrolysis as a thin renewable figleaf over the issue of CO2 emissions. (don't trust any source that describes hydrogen as an "energy source". There is no naturally occurring hydrogen reserve. It is not a source.) They might be in a better place if TEPCO hadn't messed up their nuclear plant designs in a tsunami zone.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Mandatum 2y ago

You don’t think this wasn’t considered? Did you take into consideration optimal load efficiencies? What about the total cost of ownership for the energy conversion from ICE? In 2015, hybrids were already well optimised for the current technology limitations.

xnx 2y ago

I believe this approach is called series (or serial?) hybrid and is used by the BMW i3, which was introduced in 2013.

frizkie 2y ago
Yeah, I’m fairly sure the “range extender” (engine) component was optional, not sure what the take rate was. A small percentage of an already infrequently-purchased car.

throwaway4good 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner–Porsche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner–Porsche Lohner–Porsche is a term encompassing several electric vehicles designed by Ferdinand Porsche and manufactured at Lohner-Werke in the early 1900s. They include the first hybrid electric vehicle and the first commercial hub motor car. The hybrid "Mixed" or "Mixte" racecars are powered by a gasoline engine which drives four electric motors, one in each wheel hub. The battery-powered "Touring" or "Chaise" commercial cars utilize only two front-wheel hub motors.