6 ms·

"Ledoyen attributes this to the elusive French idea of terroir. No translation accurately explains this concept [...]" Terroir means earth, hence land (as in T

"Ledoyen attributes this to the elusive French idea of terroir. No translation accurately explains this concept [...]" Terroir means earth, hence land (as in Terra for the name of planet Earth). Every peasant everywhere throughout all time understood and understands that the local soil and conditions affect the final agricultural product. There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word.

verisimi 2y ago
'Territory', would surely be the almost perfect, single word, translation.
- alex_duf 2y ago
  I don't know if territory captures the entirety of the meaning. There's a notion of culture and tradition that isn't captured by the kinda geographic meaning of territory
  - ChrisKnott 2y ago
    It seems like it's a bit like "home soil" which has cultural connotations. I can't think of an exact single word in English for the translation but I imagine every large country has the concept of regional cuisines and farming traditions feeding into a regional identity British people often point out that other languages don't really have a word for "fair play" but it's not like these cultures don't understand and respect the importance of integrity, respect, justice etc. In general this don't-have-a-word-for thing is massively overplayed (hygge probably the worst example). We're all the same species of ape.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  Id say the word "regional" is a closer fit to capturing the original meaning.
lelandfe 2y ago
Notably you didn’t translate the meaning, or, at least, “earth” or “land” is certainly too narrow. Terroir is very broad, including the plants growing nearby, the climate, the topography, nearby features (grown near a river?), sunlight, and so on. I’m not a wine expert, but I know there’s even further things which can be included, some contentious, like tradition / process, microbes, etc. “Growing conditions” is a bit closer
- tuetuopay 2y ago
  see my other comment, but terroir is not only applicable to wine. it's more about stuff that's made in some specific place. and the people with their traditions are, I would say, as important to the notion of terroir.
tuetuopay 2y ago
This is a very very restrictive way to explain "terroir". The simplest way I could describe this word as we use it in france is "a region along with its traditions and local peculiarities". So yes, the earth is part of it, but the culture, the traditions, the people, the crops, are part of the terroir. For example, anyone can grow ducks. But the southeast of France has a long tradition of duck breeding and food products made of ducks, and is renowned for it. There is knowledge and craftmanship involved in the notion of terroir. Or, hunters will often turn their game into terrine (i'll let you google that), and pretty much anyone will make it roughly the same. Granted boar may be tastier in the south due to the sun and the soil, but I have really no idea. But the notion of terroir enters there because each region will add its own twist; like the cognac region often making "terrines au cognac", or normandy "terrines au calvados". Another example is "saucisson" or dry sausage. Regions will often make produces of terroir by adding local stuff; like in savoie where you'll find saucisson with beaufort or other mountains cheese in it. Or in normandie you'll find barbecue merguez (hot sausage) with bits of camembert inside. We tend to use the term quite loosely, and it's pretty common to hear about humans being pure products of the terroir they grew up in.
- thsksbd 2y ago
  (Nothing here is to cast aspersions to France or the French whom Im rather fond of) Again, English words for dirt, e.g. land, can be used for the exact same meaning. The word terroir is not elusive; rather this is just another case of upper class English speakers fetishizing French culture mixed with French cultural conceit all too eager to oblige. Italians have the exact same concept of "terra" when they explain why a little village in Umbria makes the best prosciutto (it hits the best humidity level allowing for optimal drying rate). Or why not all the land in Montalcino bear the same quality wine (mostly due to the quality of the amount of sun/shade) And the Spaniards have the same concept with their "Tierra", including to describe people's attitude from those regions (just go to Euskal Herria) In fact, your entire message is basically the definition of the EU's DOC. The idea that terroir is an elusive French concept is also incredibly Eurocentric. Im European (origin) so I only have European examples; but do you really think that advanced civilizations like the Chinese or Japanese don't have the exact same concept as "terroir"?
kergonath 2y ago
> There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word. Indeed. But “terroir” also encompasses things like climate, techniques, and processing (and therefore indirectly people, know-how and tradition). Not only the land. It’s a bit broader than just the place of origin.
g15jv2dp 2y ago
"Terroir" does not mean "earth". The word for "earth" is "terre". They are obviously related, but not the same thing. Terroir is about much more than just the soil. Your translation is inaccurate.

verisimi 2y ago

'Territory', would surely be the almost perfect, single word, translation.

alex_duf 2y ago
I don't know if territory captures the entirety of the meaning. There's a notion of culture and tradition that isn't captured by the kinda geographic meaning of territory
- ChrisKnott 2y ago
  It seems like it's a bit like "home soil" which has cultural connotations. I can't think of an exact single word in English for the translation but I imagine every large country has the concept of regional cuisines and farming traditions feeding into a regional identity British people often point out that other languages don't really have a word for "fair play" but it's not like these cultures don't understand and respect the importance of integrity, respect, justice etc. In general this don't-have-a-word-for thing is massively overplayed (hygge probably the worst example). We're all the same species of ape.
MisterTea 2y ago
Id say the word "regional" is a closer fit to capturing the original meaning.

lelandfe 2y ago

Notably you didn’t translate the meaning, or, at least, “earth” or “land” is certainly too narrow. Terroir is very broad, including the plants growing nearby, the climate, the topography, nearby features (grown near a river?), sunlight, and so on. I’m not a wine expert, but I know there’s even further things which can be included, some contentious, like tradition / process, microbes, etc. “Growing conditions” is a bit closer

tuetuopay 2y ago
see my other comment, but terroir is not only applicable to wine. it's more about stuff that's made in some specific place. and the people with their traditions are, I would say, as important to the notion of terroir.

tuetuopay 2y ago

This is a very very restrictive way to explain "terroir". The simplest way I could describe this word as we use it in france is "a region along with its traditions and local peculiarities". So yes, the earth is part of it, but the culture, the traditions, the people, the crops, are part of the terroir. For example, anyone can grow ducks. But the southeast of France has a long tradition of duck breeding and food products made of ducks, and is renowned for it. There is knowledge and craftmanship involved in the notion of terroir. Or, hunters will often turn their game into terrine (i'll let you google that), and pretty much anyone will make it roughly the same. Granted boar may be tastier in the south due to the sun and the soil, but I have really no idea. But the notion of terroir enters there because each region will add its own twist; like the cognac region often making "terrines au cognac", or normandy "terrines au calvados". Another example is "saucisson" or dry sausage. Regions will often make produces of terroir by adding local stuff; like in savoie where you'll find saucisson with beaufort or other mountains cheese in it. Or in normandie you'll find barbecue merguez (hot sausage) with bits of camembert inside. We tend to use the term quite loosely, and it's pretty common to hear about humans being pure products of the terroir they grew up in.

thsksbd 2y ago
(Nothing here is to cast aspersions to France or the French whom Im rather fond of) Again, English words for dirt, e.g. land, can be used for the exact same meaning. The word terroir is not elusive; rather this is just another case of upper class English speakers fetishizing French culture mixed with French cultural conceit all too eager to oblige. Italians have the exact same concept of "terra" when they explain why a little village in Umbria makes the best prosciutto (it hits the best humidity level allowing for optimal drying rate). Or why not all the land in Montalcino bear the same quality wine (mostly due to the quality of the amount of sun/shade) And the Spaniards have the same concept with their "Tierra", including to describe people's attitude from those regions (just go to Euskal Herria) In fact, your entire message is basically the definition of the EU's DOC. The idea that terroir is an elusive French concept is also incredibly Eurocentric. Im European (origin) so I only have European examples; but do you really think that advanced civilizations like the Chinese or Japanese don't have the exact same concept as "terroir"?

kergonath 2y ago

> There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word. Indeed. But “terroir” also encompasses things like climate, techniques, and processing (and therefore indirectly people, know-how and tradition). Not only the land. It’s a bit broader than just the place of origin.

g15jv2dp 2y ago

"Terroir" does not mean "earth". The word for "earth" is "terre". They are obviously related, but not the same thing. Terroir is about much more than just the soil. Your translation is inaccurate.