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New BYD Hybrid Can Drive Non-Stop for More Than 2k Kilometers
- throwaway4good 2y agohttps://archive.md/HpHdP https://archive.md/HpHdP
- Heidaradar 2y agoI wonder how Tesla is going to respond. They might have most of the EV market in the US but if I was looking for my first EV, I wouldn't choose them.
- presentation 2y agoThe US put 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs and the rest of the Western/developed world are probably going to follow suit so… they can probably respond by doing nothing in particular. I’m conflicted about these tariffs since on one hand I understand the security threats and I’d like the rest of the world to catch up so it’s not just China dominating the market, but on the other it seems sad that affordable and effective EVs are here and probably can make a significant dent in emissions but the politics keep them from being utilized.
- drcongo 2y agoWhat makes you think the rest of the western world would follow suit? From Europe it feels like massive tariffs on Chinese goods are a uniquely American phenomenon.
- krolley 2y agoI would say the same thing for Australia. There is no local car industry there, so no protectionism from the govt. on importing foreign cars, one would assume.
- alephnerd 2y ago> From Europe it feels like massive tariffs on Chinese goods are a uniquely American phenomenon. Where in Europe are you? The EU is looking at enforcing a 50% tariff on Chinese EVs in the coming months [0][1]. A trade war has already unofficially started between China and the EU [2]. [0] - https://www.politico.eu/article/probe-into-chinese-subsidies-for-evs-advancing-eu-says/ https://www.politico.eu/article/probe-into-chinese-subsidies... [1] - https://www.ft.com/content/31575d29-1945-4a90-8640-04967e1d1b2f https://www.ft.com/content/31575d29-1945-4a90-8640-04967e1d1... [2] - https://www.politico.eu/article/china-beijing-market-eu-trade-war-investigation-imports-goods/ https://www.politico.eu/article/china-beijing-market-eu-trad...
- drcongo 2y agoThanks for links, hadn't heard about this.
- sunflowerfly 2y agoThe US is a relatively small market.
- alephnerd 2y agoIt's the 2nd largest automotive market in the World [0]. The other large markets like the EU and India are also looking at tariffs for EVs exported directly from China and are pushing for Chinese companies to create domestic JVs in both countries (eg. BYD in Hungary, MG in India). [0] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/269872/largest-automobile-markets-worldwide-based-on-new-car-registrations/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/269872/largest-automobil...
- tooltalk 2y agoThe US is the second largest by units sold (30M vs 15M) and the largest by value. The average selling price of a new vehicle in China is about $20K vs. US $50K.
- batter 2y agoWhy they're affordable? I mean why other automakers can't have cheap cars but China can? There can't be any magic.
- cladopa 2y agoVery simple. You could contaminate freely on China, but not in Europe and USA. You can use as much coal as you want, with as many ashes, sulphur or radioactivity as you want. That makes energy super cheap. But is is an external cost, people are paying with their health. Europe and USA went to similar periods in the past. Now China is regulating more and more because pollution is a huge problem there. Then you have salaries, that used to be cheap, now not so much. Also a very important thing is that in China capital is not free, it is a communist system and your savings account are used to subsidise what the Government wants. EV, solar, electronic chips and batteries are a priority so they receive infinite amounts of money from Government. Finally you have scale. China usually have enormous markets because it has so much people, although that applies to cheap things, for cars they don't have enough buyers inside so they want to sell in Africa and India and the West.
- okasaki 2y agoChina's life expectancy is higher than the US.
- throwaway4good 2y agoA combination of industrial policy, extreme competition in China's domestic market for cars, and a huge eco-system of subsuppliers. Lots countries have had subsidies and incentives for electric cars; however China's policies seems to have been uniquely succesful - exactly why is not obvious. Some point to the "mayor economy" where cities compete in being attractive for companies to setup business. For example see the story of Tesla's Shanghai plant.
- pjc50 2y ago- labour still somewhat cheaper - vastly easier land use situation, and impossibility of local protest - the big one: synergy. Making batteries and electronics and steel parts all comparatively close to each other inside the same customs zone. - less regulatory capture (they actually have to compete!)
- cladopa 2y agoWhat happens is that Chinese prices are not real because batteries and EV are subsidised by the Chinese Government. Also Chinese market is full of restrictions for foreign companies.
- resolutebat 2y agoSigh, this old trope again. The Chinese government stopped subsidizing EV purchases in 2022. There are some tax breaks, but they're also getting phased out. Neither is or was ever all that different from the various EV subsidies found in most Western countries. https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-chinas-evs/ https://dialogue.earth/en/business/life-after-subsidies-for-... Doing business in China is indeed very hard, but Tesla is still selling quite well there, despite absolutely furious competition.
- cladopa 2y agoIt does not need to be EV purchases. When the company I worked for went to China, it paid 0% taxes for several years. This is a subsidy. I worked there, and everything was subsidised, the steel and aluminium plants for example. If as engineer you don't pay taxes on your salary, you are subsidised.
- tooltalk 2y agoChina's EV subsidies have existed in various shapes and forms since 2009 -- they are always phasing out; then renewed, extended every 3-4 years. The last "direct purchase" subsidies ended on Jan 1, 2023; it was however extended as a "tax credit" in June 2023 for another 4 years with $72+B budget. This is also in the same article you cited (see translated below): Extension of the preferential tax policy for car purchases The total reduction and exemption is expected to reach 520 billion yuan —— Precision to provide assistance to the expansion of new energy vehicles 2023-06-21 The Ministry of Finance, the General Administration of Taxation, and the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology recently issued a joint announcement to clearly continue and optimize the tax reduction and exemption policy for the purchase of new energy vehicles to support the development of the new energy automobile industry and promote automobile consumption. According to preliminary estimates, through the implementation of the extension policy, the total scale of vehicle purchase tax relief from 2024 to 2027 will reach 520 billion yuan. Now, in addition to this, there also various industry subsidies, export credit/refund/rebates, and other financial instruments by gov't that are difficult to account for (because they are not public info).
- Dalewyn 2y ago>The US put 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs and the rest of the Western/developed world are probably going to follow suit so… Considering China, South Korea, and Japan just finished up a meeting which included moving forward with talks on a Free Trade Agreement in the face of American-led sanctions and tariffs... It's going to be fun seeing just how effective American diplomacy and economic violence actually is nowadays.
- tooltalk 2y agoChina, South Korea, and Japan really don't have the best diplomatic/trade relationship. South Korea has in particular suffered a great deal undr China's economic coercion since THAAD in 2017 -- their global giants like Samsung, Hyundai lost over 90% of their sales in China and they have likewise removed much of their manufacturing footprint in China. Not all too sure they want to jeopadize otherwise collaborative relationship with friendly ally, the US, for a hostile trading bully next door, China.
- Dalewyn 2y agoThat's what I would think too, but meanwhile Japanese PM Kishida looked very happy about the meeting and moving forward with FTA talks. I have no clue as to how South Korea felt about it, though given this was a trilateral talk I would assume similar sentiments. If that FTA does become a thing, the US will have lost before any hot war even began. May we live in fun times.
- asadotzler 2y agoThey just go to Mexico after we've renewed the USMCA for 16 and Mexico stops being afraid of Washington D.C. In Mexico they assemble cars from Chinese parts and ship duty free to the US and Candada. Or build more factories in the US. Geely owns Volvo and they're building in the US. All the EU makers, the Korean and Japanese makers too have factories in the US. Tariffs are on real imports, not on US or USMCA made products.
- okasaki 2y agoThey will make the cyberhelo, a stainless steel exoskeleton helicopter that crashes in mild wind.
- vel0city 2y agoThey wouldn't respond, because Tesla doesn't make hybrid cars. If you were looking for your first EV, you wouldn't be looking at this car because it is not an EV.
- sharpshadow 2y agoThat's remarkable for a brand new vehicle to cost under $15k and having 2000km range.
- manishsharan 2y agoSo even with 100% tarrifs, it is still very very affordable.
- DrNosferatu 2y agoNote that the cheapest BYD built to EU (crash?) standards costs a lot more than that: some €35k.
- gizmo 2y agoPresumably those cars also have a higher profit margin. In any event, the EU will impose 30%-100% import tariffs to protect their inferior car industry. This will hurt the European consumer and will hurt European competitiveness in the long term, but car companies are important to Germany and France so import taxes are a forgone conclusion. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/30/chinese-ev-imports-europe-might-need-to-impose-up-to-55percent-in-tariffs-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/30/chinese-ev-imports-europe-mi...
- DrNosferatu 2y agoIndeed! That way the EU is just blocking my access to affordable electric mobility. - "But think of the pain that would inflict on 'our' auto industry!", they would say. ...but the EU has no second thoughts on inflicting pain on its citizens. (austerity, inflation/interest rates, etc.)
- sharpshadow 2y agoI’m aware of that and related to that there is an legal battle ongoing in Germany between an importer and VW[1]. The imported cars fulfill the TÜV and cost less if they are even available here. 1. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/vw-wants-german-dealer-to-destroy-22-id-6-evs-he-imported-from-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/vw-wants-german-dealer-to-...
- throwaway4good 2y agohttps://carnewschina.com/2024/05/28/byd-qin-l-launches-in-china-with-fifth-generation-phev-system/ https://carnewschina.com/2024/05/28/byd-qin-l-launches-in-ch... Looks like incredible value and fuel efficiency at the price point.
- pingou 2y agoHow is that useful? It just has a big tank of gas, no? That doesn't really seem revolutionary. 2.9 l/100 km is pretty good though.
- mateus1 2y agoI don’t think you have the right figures. A quick online search has the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid as the highest range hybrid at 670 miles (1000km so half BYD’s figure), with a 50L tank that would put at a 5l/100k. So it has double the range AND double the efficiency of the current highest range, costing half the price… seems like a very big deal
- pingou 2y agoA Prius V is 4.1 L/100 km in combined cycle and 3.8 L/100 km in city driving. It is unclear what the 2.9 l/100 km refers to (and if it's real, like Toyota who said the Prius plug-in would be 2.10 L/100 km), but it's not double the efficiency. But doubling the range is not that interesting to me, they could make the tank 4 times bigger and that would be useless for most purposes, and that was just my point. The price seems interesting indeed, but that is the price in China, which would be very different elsewhere I guess.
- mateus1 2y agoI don’t think this is meant for general appeal, it is a very intelligent BYD flex to show that hybrid cars can have long range and that they can beat their competitors in one more metric.
- amanzi 2y agoToyota have been making hybrids since the 90s. How is it that BYD have managed to come out of nowhere and doubled the range of any Prius?
- alephnerd 2y agoThe battery, because at the end of the day BYD is a battery manufacturer. Most PHEVs are Hybrid ICE first and battery second. BYD's is the other way around because Japanese companies didn't ToT Hybrid engine technology in the 2000s unlike battery tech (BYD's was initially a ToT JV by Panasonic EDIT: NTT, Sony, and Sanyo. CATL was TDK and Panasonic).
- maxerickson 2y agoHow is a modest size battery going to extend highway range?
- alephnerd 2y agoThe Blade Battery used in the BYD Qin seems to have a 500-600 KM range [0]. Essentially, it's an EV that has a Hybrid ICE option instead of the other way around. [0] - https://en.byd.com/search/the%20Blade%20Battery https://en.byd.com/search/the%20Blade%20Battery
- maxerickson 2y agoThe article discussed here plainly states that the batteries in the hybrid cars are about 10 and 16 kW. The article you link is about the technology being used in buses, with capacity up to 500 kW giving buses ranges of up to 600 km... Anyway.
- XorNot 2y agoI'm curious what's actually been done here, because a regular hybrid is just an efficient gas powered vehicle - so you could have any range you want by sizing the tank appropriately. The Prius Gen 2 (my car) has a 45L tank, which is smaller then equivalent Toyota vehicles in that size range and good for about 800km. I imagine that under the right test conditions, if you were using a plug-in hybrid design and have a fairly substantial battery pack, then it would be different - because then you're just using EV mode for part of the range, and the gas for the rest of it (and choose your speed for optimal ICE performance vs. drag losses).
- rolivercoffee 2y agoI'm not sure my bladder could handle driving 2,000km without a stop!
- prmoustache 2y agoNobody wants to tackle the elephant in the room. I don't care if Tesla, Byd or another manufacturer give me a few kms more of range. First I want a car that doesn't send data to the manufacturer and/or third parties and do not track me. Does that unicorn still even exist or do I have to wait for UE to do something about it?
- Symbiote 2y agoThat's nothing to do with the vehicle's type of engine
- prmoustache 2y agoNo but old ice cars did not have data collection and I can still buy one and will as long as law permit it and I cannot control where and when data is sent.
- number6 2y agoEU is your best bet here - but frist you have to wait for the decline of the German Car Complex, so the EU is not in their pocket anymore. If it guards their marked to have high privacy standards in cars, then it will be enforced.
- rom16384 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
- prmoustache 2y agoI am fine with that kind of system if: - data is only sent to emergency services - data is only sent when required (crash detection, airbag deployment, manual call through button etc) And it is unrelated to all the data the manufacturers collect.
- M95D 2y ago
- drcongo 2y agoI like the name, "2000km range? 'kinell!"
- keploy 2y agoYou only need about 35 hp to keep a 4000lb car cruising at 70 mph. The idea? Run the powertrain totally on battery, then toss in a 50 or 70 hp engine just to charge it up. It's flipping the hybrid script: instead of using electric for low demand and gas for more juice, it's electric for the main power and gas just for the battery. This puts the heavy lifting on the 90% efficient powertrain and eases up on the super inefficient 25% one. Toyota should've been all over this back in 2015.
- voisin 2y agoStellantis is doing this for an upcoming Ramcharger reboot.
- TheJayroro 2y agoIsn't this the same thing Chevy did with the Volt?
- soganess 2y agoYou're right, it is. They dropped it when they released the Bolt, or more correctly, Chevy went all electric with the Bolt.
- alephnerd 2y ago> Toyota should've been all over this back in 2015. METI (the Japanese Ministry that develops Japan's R&D strategy) is hesitant about using lithium ion battery technology due to lithium dependency issues and memories about the impact the 1970s oil shock had on Japan [0][1], along with IP issues. This is why Japan has been pushing it's domestic champions to research Hydrogen Fuel Cells [2] and solid state batteries [3] This is also the strategy that Toyota adopted [4][5]. [0] - https://www.sojitz.com/history/en/era/05/ https://www.sojitz.com/history/en/era/05/ [1] - https://www.ide.go.jp/library/English/Publish/Periodicals/De/pdf/76_04_01.pdf https://www.ide.go.jp/library/English/Publish/Periodicals/De... [2] - https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso_seisaku/pdf/20230606_5.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/shingikai/enecho/shoene_shinene/suiso... [3] - https://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/pdf/0520_001a.pdf https://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/pdf/0520_001a.pdf [4] - https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330548.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330548.html [5] - https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330500.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/39330500.html