4 ms·

Do they not have the same problem as Russia, though? Kick out Netanyahu or Putin and another group of (potentially even more) unhinged psychos take power.

by smcl 2y ago

dmurray 2y ago
[flagged]
- Protostome 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jemmyw 2y ago
    Genocide as a legal term isn't just reserved for killing the entire population. Destroying the culture of a population is also genocide, and there is a greater argument that has happened given how much of Gaza has been levelled. The food situation could also constitute genocide if Israel is purposefully preventing aid supplies. There could be an intent to make Gaza unviable. > If Hamas had the capability to up-scale it's operations, it likely would have attempted to fulfill these aspects of its covenant and eradicate all jews. Both sides are perpetuating the hate for the next generation.
    - firesteelrain 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - mlazos 2y ago
        Haven’t heard of one good reason why aid via land crossings is being prevented from entering Gaza. The US literally built a pier to deliver aid when this is not an island country. Mass starvation, transferring of population (settlers in the West Bank) against a single culture/people are all forms of genocide. Documented cases of hospitals being destroyed, snipers killing people seeking medical care are all happening, if this isn’t genocide I don’t know what is.
        Protostome 2y ago
        [flagged]
        Chris2048 2y ago
        enemy population? I thought this wasn't war? It's only Hamas that's the enemy, right?
        Protostome 2y ago
        [flagged]
        muddi900 2y ago
        World food program disagrees with you on starvation: https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-is... Also whi documented Hospitals being used for military purposes? I have heard this hasbara point for months and have not seen any real eveidence.
        firesteelrain 2y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital...
        runarberg 2y ago
        We are still waiting for the evidence they claimed to have for that, or even the clarification on what these alleged evidence even was. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/hamas-gaza-israel-alshifa-tunnels/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/... Note that investigations from journalists have serious issues with these allegations, and have shown it is highly implausible this evidence exists, or shows the allegations to be true. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hos... Also note that this raid severely hampered the operations of the hospital, but didn’t completely destroy it. However, since this statement in January, there was another raid at the end of March, and that raid put the hospital completely out of service. If the first raid destroyed the supposed command center under the hospital, why did they do a second raid? And why did they leave behind mass graves? And where is the evidence for the supposed command center?
      - brabel 2y ago
        According to the legal professionals overseeing this, you're wrong: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 The court accepted the case and ordered Israel to take all measures possible to prevent genocidal acts to continue: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240524-ord-01-00-en.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Since then, Israel ignored the order and arguably even intensified its attacks. It seems clear now that the legal institution responsible for evaluating whether genocide is happening believes Israel is indeed committing genocide.
        firesteelrain 2y ago
        How much of that is politicized?
  - muddi900 2y ago
    "Section 1091 of Title 18, United States Code, prohibits genocide whether committed in time of peace or time of war. Genocide is defined in § 1091 and includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"
  - czl 2y ago
    > does not constitute genocide Crimes are decided by courts and when countries are involved international courts / international judges become involved. To threaten or bribe or ignore judges does not look good. I am not saying this was done. I am only speaking about how it looks. > If Israel had the intent to exterminate all Palestinians, it possesses the means but clearly lacks such intentions. Do you doubt some groups in Israel want Palestinian to “disappear” and only wish they had some pretext to justify it? Say some Israeli group carries out some attack with the result that many die now what fraction of Israel should be killed / destroyed? How much collateral damage to Israel is acceptable? Perhaps specific members of that group should be punished instead? And if you can not punish them right away you take your time and do it when possible? > On the other hand, Hamas has explicitly stated its intention towards Israelis in its charter, and actually executed to the best of their ability genocidal ambitions against Jews on October 7th. No one civilized supports Hamas or their methods. The question is about those who live in Gaza that are not Hamas and how much collateral death and destruction is acceptable. You may call it a “defensive war” but consider how that war looks outside Israel and how Israel will look after it has “won” that war. I support Israel but believe current Israeli government is making a mistake with how they are dealing with Hamas due to all bystanders being hurt. I also think Israeli government screwed up allowing settlers in West Bank and having to dilute military to protect these settlers leaving border with Gaza less protected. The results of these bad policies speak for themselves.
  - smcl 2y ago
    I’m fairly certain there have been people making exactly this argument during the various genocides of the past hundred years or so. Might be worth taking a step back, you may find yourself having a Mitchell & Webb “our hats have skulls on them…” moment
- cooloo 2y ago
  [flagged]

Do they not have the same problem as Russia, though? Kick out Netanyahu or Putin and another group of (potentially even more) unhinged psychos take power.

by smcl 2y ago

Do they not have the same problem as Russia, though? Kick out Netanyahu or Putin and another group of (potentially even more) unhinged psychos take power.

dmurray 2y ago

[flagged]

Protostome 2y ago
[flagged]
- jemmyw 2y ago
  Genocide as a legal term isn't just reserved for killing the entire population. Destroying the culture of a population is also genocide, and there is a greater argument that has happened given how much of Gaza has been levelled. The food situation could also constitute genocide if Israel is purposefully preventing aid supplies. There could be an intent to make Gaza unviable. > If Hamas had the capability to up-scale it's operations, it likely would have attempted to fulfill these aspects of its covenant and eradicate all jews. Both sides are perpetuating the hate for the next generation.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mlazos 2y ago
      Haven’t heard of one good reason why aid via land crossings is being prevented from entering Gaza. The US literally built a pier to deliver aid when this is not an island country. Mass starvation, transferring of population (settlers in the West Bank) against a single culture/people are all forms of genocide. Documented cases of hospitals being destroyed, snipers killing people seeking medical care are all happening, if this isn’t genocide I don’t know what is.
      - Protostome 2y ago
        [flagged]
        Chris2048 2y ago
        enemy population? I thought this wasn't war? It's only Hamas that's the enemy, right?
        Protostome 2y ago
        [flagged]
        muddi900 2y ago
        World food program disagrees with you on starvation: https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-israel-hamas-war-476941bf2dc259f85a706408b2a665ff https://apnews.com/article/gaza-famine-world-food-program-is... Also whi documented Hospitals being used for military purposes? I have heard this hasbara point for months and have not seen any real eveidence.
        firesteelrain 2y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/02/us/politics/gaza-hospital...
        runarberg 2y ago
        We are still waiting for the evidence they claimed to have for that, or even the clarification on what these alleged evidence even was. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/hamas-gaza-israel-alshifa-tunnels/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/01/03/... Note that investigations from journalists have serious issues with these allegations, and have shown it is highly implausible this evidence exists, or shows the allegations to be true. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hos... Also note that this raid severely hampered the operations of the hospital, but didn’t completely destroy it. However, since this statement in January, there was another raid at the end of March, and that raid put the hospital completely out of service. If the first raid destroyed the supposed command center under the hospital, why did they do a second raid? And why did they leave behind mass graves? And where is the evidence for the supposed command center?
    - brabel 2y ago
      According to the legal professionals overseeing this, you're wrong: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 The court accepted the case and ordered Israel to take all measures possible to prevent genocidal acts to continue: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240524-ord-01-00-en.pdf https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Since then, Israel ignored the order and arguably even intensified its attacks. It seems clear now that the legal institution responsible for evaluating whether genocide is happening believes Israel is indeed committing genocide.
      - firesteelrain 2y ago
        How much of that is politicized?
- muddi900 2y ago
  "Section 1091 of Title 18, United States Code, prohibits genocide whether committed in time of peace or time of war. Genocide is defined in § 1091 and includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group"
- czl 2y ago
  > does not constitute genocide Crimes are decided by courts and when countries are involved international courts / international judges become involved. To threaten or bribe or ignore judges does not look good. I am not saying this was done. I am only speaking about how it looks. > If Israel had the intent to exterminate all Palestinians, it possesses the means but clearly lacks such intentions. Do you doubt some groups in Israel want Palestinian to “disappear” and only wish they had some pretext to justify it? Say some Israeli group carries out some attack with the result that many die now what fraction of Israel should be killed / destroyed? How much collateral damage to Israel is acceptable? Perhaps specific members of that group should be punished instead? And if you can not punish them right away you take your time and do it when possible? > On the other hand, Hamas has explicitly stated its intention towards Israelis in its charter, and actually executed to the best of their ability genocidal ambitions against Jews on October 7th. No one civilized supports Hamas or their methods. The question is about those who live in Gaza that are not Hamas and how much collateral death and destruction is acceptable. You may call it a “defensive war” but consider how that war looks outside Israel and how Israel will look after it has “won” that war. I support Israel but believe current Israeli government is making a mistake with how they are dealing with Hamas due to all bystanders being hurt. I also think Israeli government screwed up allowing settlers in West Bank and having to dilute military to protect these settlers leaving border with Gaza less protected. The results of these bad policies speak for themselves.
- smcl 2y ago
  I’m fairly certain there have been people making exactly this argument during the various genocides of the past hundred years or so. Might be worth taking a step back, you may find yourself having a Mitchell & Webb “our hats have skulls on them…” moment
cooloo 2y ago
[flagged]