3 ms·

But PG&E doesn't own all the lines. https://gis.data.ca.gov/datasets/260b4513acdb4a3a8e4d64e69fc84fee/explore?location=37.540510%2C-121.566865%2C10.37 https://

by shagie 2y ago

But PG&E doesn't own all the lines. https://gis.data.ca.gov/datasets/260b4513acdb4a3a8e4d64e69fc84fee/explore?location=37.540510%2C-121.566865%2C10.37 https://gis.data.ca.gov/datasets/260b4513acdb4a3a8e4d64e69fc... For example, PG&E owns the line that goes from Coyote to Tracy, but the ones that runs perpendicular to it is owned by Critical Energy. Or https://gis.data.ca.gov/datasets/260b4513acdb4a3a8e4d64e69fc84fee/explore?location=38.828293%2C-122.001848%2C12.11 https://gis.data.ca.gov/datasets/260b4513acdb4a3a8e4d64e69fc... One line owned by PG&E, the next line is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_66 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_66 (some of which is owned by PG&E, some of which is owned by other companies). > Two of the power lines run from Malin Substation southeast of Klamath Falls, Oregon to Round Mountain Substation northeast of Redding, California. One of them is owned by Western Area Power Administration, with the other owned by Pacific Gas and Electric and PacifiCorp jointly.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
I agree, but i have come to believe customers are best served by a locally controlled retailer that buys power and then pays someone to transport it. I don't have a source handy, but if I recall correctly, most local retailers like Sacramento Municipal Utility District (Smud) have substantially lower rates. Last I checked they were like half of my PG&E bill
- shagie 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Municipal_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Municipal_Power > Founded in 1887, it provides electricity to c. 34,000 residential, commercial, and municipal customers at rates up to 20 percent below neighboring communities. > ... > AMP has been providing 100% clean energy since 2020 and did so in 2023 at approximately a 35% saving over comparable PG&E rates. However, my point is one of that the state of California shouldn't be the one owning (and maintaining) the transmission lines. And even if there was a public takeover of PG&E back when it was going through its bankruptcy - there still would have been many transmission lines owned by companies that are not PG&E. Having taxes go to a hypothetical state-PG&E would also get into issues of the public sector directly competing with the private sector and using money from California for areas that they are not serviced by ( https://www.arcgis.com/apps/instant/minimalist/index.html?appid=03ef3d359a2842f0bd87359fb2ffebf8 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/instant/minimalist/index.html?ap... ). You can see that Alameda and Sacramento and many other areas are not serviced by PG&E. Would it be reasonable for California to have bought PG&E and then add to the taxes for California to support the connection fees... and how would you handle the people who live in areas that aren't served by PG&E (like Palo Alto, Santa Clara, Mountain House, Sacramento ... and all of Southern California ... and everything east of the Sierras but still in California)
paulmd 2y ago
Eminent domain can be used to acquire the assets if needed. It’s just not a popular idea to libertarian American political sensibilities to use those laws to acquire assets for the public instead of acquire the public’s houses to build shopping malls. Anyway, there’s no reason you can’t decouple ownership and usage rights anyway. And it probably is the only way to stop the forest fires PG&E repeatedly has caused with their neglectful maintenance strategy. Who owns the assets right now is possibly one of the least relevant questions in fact. It does not matter in the least, and we should in fact move in a direction that means it matters even less.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >It’s just not a popular idea to libertarian American political sensibilities to use those laws to acquire assets for the public instead of acquire the public’s houses to build shopping malls. What a strange jab. Do you really think libertarians are excited about using eminent domain to seize houses?
- shagie 2y ago
  Hypothetically, let's do it. Wave the eminent domain wand and poof California now owns all the PG&E lines. They are now in competition for transmission with the private entity PacifiCorp that jointly owns some substations with PG&E and spans six states. This gets into tricky situations where the government is competing to provide the same service without any profit motive and able to monopolize its position through enacting laws... something that private entities can't really compete against. Next, you've got the power lines (and sub stations). What you don't have is the tools (vehicles, equipment) to maintain those power lines. https://www.fleetowner.com/operations/article/21242388/2022-private-fleet-of-the-year-pge https://www.fleetowner.com/operations/article/21242388/2022-... > Reichert is now a senior fleet engineer for PG&E, which has one of the largest battery-electric fleets in North America. The 49th largest commercial private fleet in the U.S. provides transportation services for the 117-year-old utility provider. Based in Oakland, the company has more than 5 million customers in central and northern California. > Its fleet includes more than 14,500 vehicles that cover nearly every duty cycle. These include construction and off-road equipment, snowcats, UTVs, and specialty gas and electric utility fleet assets. More traditional assets range from Classes 1-8: light-duty passenger cars and pickup trucks, medium-duty service trucks, aerial trouble trucks, gas welding, heavy-duty gas crew vehicles, electric line, material handlers, and day cab tractors. Does California suddenly also go and claim 14,500 vehicles that it would need to service the equipment that PG&E formerly had? And next we're at the people who actually do the work... https://jobs.pge.com/about-us https://jobs.pge.com/about-us > Based in San Francisco, our 25,000 employees work throughout our Northern and Central California service area 25,000 people isn't a small number, and there are 220,000 people working for the state of California ... but we also know how well the public sector pays compare to the private sector. I believe that it is absurd to think that you could use eminent domain to try to say that PG&E is doing a poor job and that the State of California is taking ownership of its power lines... and all of its assets... and expect its employees to continue to work there. The State of California is not an organization that is properly equipped to handle the management of some of the power lines in some of the state unless you are also wishing to have CalPower be a department within the state government that rivals CalTrans for quality and timeliness of service.

by shagie 2y ago

s1artibartfast 2y ago

I agree, but i have come to believe customers are best served by a locally controlled retailer that buys power and then pays someone to transport it. I don't have a source handy, but if I recall correctly, most local retailers like Sacramento Municipal Utility District (Smud) have substantially lower rates. Last I checked they were like half of my PG&E bill

shagie 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Municipal_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alameda_Municipal_Power > Founded in 1887, it provides electricity to c. 34,000 residential, commercial, and municipal customers at rates up to 20 percent below neighboring communities. > ... > AMP has been providing 100% clean energy since 2020 and did so in 2023 at approximately a 35% saving over comparable PG&E rates. However, my point is one of that the state of California shouldn't be the one owning (and maintaining) the transmission lines. And even if there was a public takeover of PG&E back when it was going through its bankruptcy - there still would have been many transmission lines owned by companies that are not PG&E. Having taxes go to a hypothetical state-PG&E would also get into issues of the public sector directly competing with the private sector and using money from California for areas that they are not serviced by ( https://www.arcgis.com/apps/instant/minimalist/index.html?appid=03ef3d359a2842f0bd87359fb2ffebf8 https://www.arcgis.com/apps/instant/minimalist/index.html?ap... ). You can see that Alameda and Sacramento and many other areas are not serviced by PG&E. Would it be reasonable for California to have bought PG&E and then add to the taxes for California to support the connection fees... and how would you handle the people who live in areas that aren't served by PG&E (like Palo Alto, Santa Clara, Mountain House, Sacramento ... and all of Southern California ... and everything east of the Sierras but still in California)

paulmd 2y ago

Eminent domain can be used to acquire the assets if needed. It’s just not a popular idea to libertarian American political sensibilities to use those laws to acquire assets for the public instead of acquire the public’s houses to build shopping malls. Anyway, there’s no reason you can’t decouple ownership and usage rights anyway. And it probably is the only way to stop the forest fires PG&E repeatedly has caused with their neglectful maintenance strategy. Who owns the assets right now is possibly one of the least relevant questions in fact. It does not matter in the least, and we should in fact move in a direction that means it matters even less.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
>It’s just not a popular idea to libertarian American political sensibilities to use those laws to acquire assets for the public instead of acquire the public’s houses to build shopping malls. What a strange jab. Do you really think libertarians are excited about using eminent domain to seize houses?
shagie 2y ago
Hypothetically, let's do it. Wave the eminent domain wand and poof California now owns all the PG&E lines. They are now in competition for transmission with the private entity PacifiCorp that jointly owns some substations with PG&E and spans six states. This gets into tricky situations where the government is competing to provide the same service without any profit motive and able to monopolize its position through enacting laws... something that private entities can't really compete against. Next, you've got the power lines (and sub stations). What you don't have is the tools (vehicles, equipment) to maintain those power lines. https://www.fleetowner.com/operations/article/21242388/2022-private-fleet-of-the-year-pge https://www.fleetowner.com/operations/article/21242388/2022-... > Reichert is now a senior fleet engineer for PG&E, which has one of the largest battery-electric fleets in North America. The 49th largest commercial private fleet in the U.S. provides transportation services for the 117-year-old utility provider. Based in Oakland, the company has more than 5 million customers in central and northern California. > Its fleet includes more than 14,500 vehicles that cover nearly every duty cycle. These include construction and off-road equipment, snowcats, UTVs, and specialty gas and electric utility fleet assets. More traditional assets range from Classes 1-8: light-duty passenger cars and pickup trucks, medium-duty service trucks, aerial trouble trucks, gas welding, heavy-duty gas crew vehicles, electric line, material handlers, and day cab tractors. Does California suddenly also go and claim 14,500 vehicles that it would need to service the equipment that PG&E formerly had? And next we're at the people who actually do the work... https://jobs.pge.com/about-us https://jobs.pge.com/about-us > Based in San Francisco, our 25,000 employees work throughout our Northern and Central California service area 25,000 people isn't a small number, and there are 220,000 people working for the state of California ... but we also know how well the public sector pays compare to the private sector. I believe that it is absurd to think that you could use eminent domain to try to say that PG&E is doing a poor job and that the State of California is taking ownership of its power lines... and all of its assets... and expect its employees to continue to work there. The State of California is not an organization that is properly equipped to handle the management of some of the power lines in some of the state unless you are also wishing to have CalPower be a department within the state government that rivals CalTrans for quality and timeliness of service.