7 ms·

Paris's Catacomb Mushrooms (2017)

101 points by jihadjihad 2y ago

gniv 2y ago
Some things seem to have changed since then. All the button mushrooms that I buy from the supermarket say "Origine France".
- averne_ 2y ago
  The mushrooms are imported from China or Poland as mycelium, and the harvest is done in France. Since the law distinguishes between mycelium and mushroom, the mushroom were technically produced in France. https://web.archive.org/web/20240121180131/https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/190ts23/vous_mangez_des_champignons_fran%C3%A7ais_provenant_de/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240121180131/https://www.reddi...
surfingdino 2y ago
Three questions: 1. Is the Paris Metro so shallow because of the quarries? 2. Do mushrooms still grow in the quarries? Has anyone checked recently? 3. When is a Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out?
- kergonath 2y ago
  > Is Paris Metro so shallow because of the quarries? The Paris metro is a mixture of deep, subsurface, and surface tracks. There are a lot of shallow tunnels mostly because cut-and-cover was easier and cheaper than digging deep underground. Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels. > When is Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out? You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley (actually I would be surprised if he did not try, even though he might not want to put that on YouTube). They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently but it still is fairly popular with the urban exploration crowd.
  - surfingdino 2y ago
    > Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels. I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles? Seems to be the way London has gone with the Elizabeth Line. Although that may still be shallower than Paris' quarries and lakes.
    - _notreallyme_ 2y ago
      > I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles? The problem is the Seine phreatic zone, which starts usually between 15 to 25m below the surface. Some GRS galleries are actually completely inundated and others have a level of water that varies between the seasons. In order to have some metro going underneath the Seine river, they had to freeze it first. It is not an easy task, so there must be a real advantage to going under the Seine.
    - sofixa 2y ago
      > I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles Paris has been doing it for decades. All new lines in Paris (such as metro line 14, opened in 1998, RER E) have been dug by tunnel boring machines, and are at a depth below 20m. Same goes for all new lines outside of Paris proper, like most of the Grand Paris Express 200km+ new lines.
  - tuetuopay 2y ago
    Tim-like pedantry corner: the quarries and the catacumbs are actually the same thing. Catacumbs are parts of the quarries that have been turned to ossuaries, and are reachable from the wider quarry network. > You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley I'm not that sure, since he does not want to do illegal stuff (like for the belgian test track where the factory is now closed to the public). As for visiting those parts legally, well, I'm only aware of a few instances where there has been the media granted access. But it was more for documentaries about how the police works down there, not for a general history lesson. Both the police nor the IGC (the french administration managing the quarries) will bother with Tim sadly. So yes it'd be up his alley if he could do it legally. > They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently It's actually the opposite. There's a constant cat-and-mouse game going on, and they're switching strategies recently, which I could experience first-hand. Current strategy is about prevention because they know they cannot prevent people from getting down there, so they're emphasizing safety and not hurting yourself because they "don't want to get woken up at 9AM a sunday morning because someone got lost".
- tuetuopay 2y ago
  I'll reply only on the second point because that's a topic I know (I happen to wander quite often in those quarries). And no, there is no mushroom production anymore in the quarries. The paris area is too crowded now, and for economies of scale, existing quarries are too hard to use, and will use old quarries further away (but not as old as the "catacumbs" to have larger tunnels easier to work in). Also, what's often called the catacumbs are quarries dating back to the middle ages, and thus are narrow, turny, wet, etc. Just a pain to work in. Oh, and don't forget the dwellers that like to go down there, and would be sure to spoil all the crops.
PobedaRossia 2y ago
[dead]
netsharc 2y ago
I read "mushrooms" as "museums" and thought this is about the catacombs where they stored all the human bones, because the cemeteries were full... It's open for public tours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CfazQ2P8D8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CfazQ2P8D8 I've been there, and thinking back to it, the amount of bones is horrific. Each skull used to have a brain in it, and was an individual...
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  The catacombs in Naples are worth a visit too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_San_Gennaro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_San_Gennaro
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mchinen 2y ago
I'm assuming the mushroom in question is agaricus biosporus in white button form. Interesting to hear the 3 star Michelin chef say there is a huge difference between paris mushrooms and industrial mushrooms of the same species due to the natural way it grows, because mushroom foragers often find this species in the wild and it's cousin agaricus campestris, but I never hear anyone mention it is particularly better than store bought mushrooms. The wild ones I've tried tasted fairly similar. For other cultivated mushrooms like lion's mane or oyster, foragers also don't claim huge taste benefits to the wild ones, and there is usually some fly larvae even if they look good. Do the catacombs provide some extra benefit in substrate or environment for the taste? I'm now curious about trying these, and I also wonder how they would do in a blind test.
- Kaijo 2y ago
  The article claims that it does, because of the limestone terrior. But I don't have much confidence in that claim, because the author is obviously at pains to make this mushroom sound as special as possible for the sake of a story, calling it a "unique species" when it is just another cultivated variety of the same old Agaricus bisporus.
thsksbd 2y ago
"Ledoyen attributes this to the elusive French idea of terroir. No translation accurately explains this concept [...]" Terroir means earth, hence land (as in Terra for the name of planet Earth). Every peasant everywhere throughout all time understood and understands that the local soil and conditions affect the final agricultural product. There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word.
- verisimi 2y ago
  'Territory', would surely be the almost perfect, single word, translation.
  - alex_duf 2y ago
    I don't know if territory captures the entirety of the meaning. There's a notion of culture and tradition that isn't captured by the kinda geographic meaning of territory
    - ChrisKnott 2y ago
      It seems like it's a bit like "home soil" which has cultural connotations. I can't think of an exact single word in English for the translation but I imagine every large country has the concept of regional cuisines and farming traditions feeding into a regional identity British people often point out that other languages don't really have a word for "fair play" but it's not like these cultures don't understand and respect the importance of integrity, respect, justice etc. In general this don't-have-a-word-for thing is massively overplayed (hygge probably the worst example). We're all the same species of ape.
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    Id say the word "regional" is a closer fit to capturing the original meaning.
- lelandfe 2y ago
  Notably you didn’t translate the meaning, or, at least, “earth” or “land” is certainly too narrow. Terroir is very broad, including the plants growing nearby, the climate, the topography, nearby features (grown near a river?), sunlight, and so on. I’m not a wine expert, but I know there’s even further things which can be included, some contentious, like tradition / process, microbes, etc. “Growing conditions” is a bit closer
DrNosferatu 2y ago
So... then these mushrooms are composting human remains, right?
- advisedwang 2y ago
  Only bones were interred in the catacombs.
  - DrNosferatu 2y ago
    Why the downnote? Aren't human bones human remains too?
    - advisedwang 2y ago
      I didn't downvote, but to further explain: a pile of bones won't compost and won't grown mushrooms.
notorandit 2y ago
A similar thing can be found in Napoli Sotterranea https://www.napolisotterranea.org/il-percorso/il-percorso-orti-ipogei/ https://www.napolisotterranea.org/il-percorso/il-percorso-or...

101 points by jihadjihad 2y ago

gniv 2y ago

Some things seem to have changed since then. All the button mushrooms that I buy from the supermarket say "Origine France".

averne_ 2y ago
The mushrooms are imported from China or Poland as mycelium, and the harvest is done in France. Since the law distinguishes between mycelium and mushroom, the mushroom were technically produced in France. https://web.archive.org/web/20240121180131/https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/190ts23/vous_mangez_des_champignons_fran%C3%A7ais_provenant_de/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240121180131/https://www.reddi...

surfingdino 2y ago

Three questions: 1. Is the Paris Metro so shallow because of the quarries? 2. Do mushrooms still grow in the quarries? Has anyone checked recently? 3. When is a Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out?

kergonath 2y ago
> Is Paris Metro so shallow because of the quarries? The Paris metro is a mixture of deep, subsurface, and surface tracks. There are a lot of shallow tunnels mostly because cut-and-cover was easier and cheaper than digging deep underground. Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels. > When is Tim Traveller's video on the subject coming out? You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley (actually I would be surprised if he did not try, even though he might not want to put that on YouTube). They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently but it still is fairly popular with the urban exploration crowd.
- surfingdino 2y ago
  > Paris is very complicated underground. Besides the quarries there are the sewers, catacombs, some underground lakes, reservoirs, etc. It is definitely a complicating factor when planning new metro tunnels. I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles? Seems to be the way London has gone with the Elizabeth Line. Although that may still be shallower than Paris' quarries and lakes.
  - _notreallyme_ 2y ago
    > I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles? The problem is the Seine phreatic zone, which starts usually between 15 to 25m below the surface. Some GRS galleries are actually completely inundated and others have a level of water that varies between the seasons. In order to have some metro going underneath the Seine river, they had to freeze it first. It is not an easy task, so there must be a real advantage to going under the Seine.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > I wonder if the French are considering digging underneath all those obstacles Paris has been doing it for decades. All new lines in Paris (such as metro line 14, opened in 1998, RER E) have been dug by tunnel boring machines, and are at a depth below 20m. Same goes for all new lines outside of Paris proper, like most of the Grand Paris Express 200km+ new lines.
- tuetuopay 2y ago
  Tim-like pedantry corner: the quarries and the catacumbs are actually the same thing. Catacumbs are parts of the quarries that have been turned to ossuaries, and are reachable from the wider quarry network. > You’d think exploring the closed parts of the catacombs would be right up his alley I'm not that sure, since he does not want to do illegal stuff (like for the belgian test track where the factory is now closed to the public). As for visiting those parts legally, well, I'm only aware of a few instances where there has been the media granted access. But it was more for documentaries about how the police works down there, not for a general history lesson. Both the police nor the IGC (the french administration managing the quarries) will bother with Tim sadly. So yes it'd be up his alley if he could do it legally. > They’ve been cracking up on trespassers recently It's actually the opposite. There's a constant cat-and-mouse game going on, and they're switching strategies recently, which I could experience first-hand. Current strategy is about prevention because they know they cannot prevent people from getting down there, so they're emphasizing safety and not hurting yourself because they "don't want to get woken up at 9AM a sunday morning because someone got lost".
tuetuopay 2y ago
I'll reply only on the second point because that's a topic I know (I happen to wander quite often in those quarries). And no, there is no mushroom production anymore in the quarries. The paris area is too crowded now, and for economies of scale, existing quarries are too hard to use, and will use old quarries further away (but not as old as the "catacumbs" to have larger tunnels easier to work in). Also, what's often called the catacumbs are quarries dating back to the middle ages, and thus are narrow, turny, wet, etc. Just a pain to work in. Oh, and don't forget the dwellers that like to go down there, and would be sure to spoil all the crops.

PobedaRossia 2y ago

[dead]

netsharc 2y ago

I read "mushrooms" as "museums" and thought this is about the catacombs where they stored all the human bones, because the cemeteries were full... It's open for public tours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CfazQ2P8D8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CfazQ2P8D8 I've been there, and thinking back to it, the amount of bones is horrific. Each skull used to have a brain in it, and was an individual...

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
The catacombs in Naples are worth a visit too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_San_Gennaro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_San_Gennaro

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mchinen 2y ago

I'm assuming the mushroom in question is agaricus biosporus in white button form. Interesting to hear the 3 star Michelin chef say there is a huge difference between paris mushrooms and industrial mushrooms of the same species due to the natural way it grows, because mushroom foragers often find this species in the wild and it's cousin agaricus campestris, but I never hear anyone mention it is particularly better than store bought mushrooms. The wild ones I've tried tasted fairly similar. For other cultivated mushrooms like lion's mane or oyster, foragers also don't claim huge taste benefits to the wild ones, and there is usually some fly larvae even if they look good. Do the catacombs provide some extra benefit in substrate or environment for the taste? I'm now curious about trying these, and I also wonder how they would do in a blind test.

Kaijo 2y ago
The article claims that it does, because of the limestone terrior. But I don't have much confidence in that claim, because the author is obviously at pains to make this mushroom sound as special as possible for the sake of a story, calling it a "unique species" when it is just another cultivated variety of the same old Agaricus bisporus.

thsksbd 2y ago

"Ledoyen attributes this to the elusive French idea of terroir. No translation accurately explains this concept [...]" Terroir means earth, hence land (as in Terra for the name of planet Earth). Every peasant everywhere throughout all time understood and understands that the local soil and conditions affect the final agricultural product. There's nothing elusive or untranslatable about the French word.

verisimi 2y ago
'Territory', would surely be the almost perfect, single word, translation.
- alex_duf 2y ago
  I don't know if territory captures the entirety of the meaning. There's a notion of culture and tradition that isn't captured by the kinda geographic meaning of territory
  - ChrisKnott 2y ago
    It seems like it's a bit like "home soil" which has cultural connotations. I can't think of an exact single word in English for the translation but I imagine every large country has the concept of regional cuisines and farming traditions feeding into a regional identity British people often point out that other languages don't really have a word for "fair play" but it's not like these cultures don't understand and respect the importance of integrity, respect, justice etc. In general this don't-have-a-word-for thing is massively overplayed (hygge probably the worst example). We're all the same species of ape.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  Id say the word "regional" is a closer fit to capturing the original meaning.
lelandfe 2y ago
Notably you didn’t translate the meaning, or, at least, “earth” or “land” is certainly too narrow. Terroir is very broad, including the plants growing nearby, the climate, the topography, nearby features (grown near a river?), sunlight, and so on. I’m not a wine expert, but I know there’s even further things which can be included, some contentious, like tradition / process, microbes, etc. “Growing conditions” is a bit closer

DrNosferatu 2y ago

So... then these mushrooms are composting human remains, right?

advisedwang 2y ago
Only bones were interred in the catacombs.
- DrNosferatu 2y ago
  Why the downnote? Aren't human bones human remains too?
  - advisedwang 2y ago
    I didn't downvote, but to further explain: a pile of bones won't compost and won't grown mushrooms.

notorandit 2y ago

A similar thing can be found in Napoli Sotterranea https://www.napolisotterranea.org/il-percorso/il-percorso-orti-ipogei/ https://www.napolisotterranea.org/il-percorso/il-percorso-or...