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Just for factual background, engaging data has a new infographic about California energy production that is useful [1] Worth noting that there isn't a lot of r

Just for factual background, engaging data has a new infographic about California energy production that is useful [1] Worth noting that there isn't a lot of room for growth of solar that isn't battery-backed. California exports a ton of energy during the bright months. As a practical matter, the era of sending excess rooftop solar generation to the grid is over. [1] https://engaging-data.com/california-electricity-generation/ https://engaging-data.com/california-electricity-generation/

bardak 2y ago
I know BC hydro buys cheap power from other utilities to keep the reservoirs as full as possible. If California has excessive Solar power it could be used to keep the hydro reservoirs in BC, Washington, Oregon, and northern California full for other times.
- tigerlily 2y ago
  That could be quite a good reason to build an HVDC link between the two regions.
  - briffle 2y ago
    There is already a 3GW HVDC line between The Dalles, OR, and LA. (one of the oldest HVDC links in the US). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
opprobium 2y ago
If you look at that graph for a whole day you will see a huge kick-in of power company owned battery storage in the evening. There is no reason the grid cannot operate batteries at scale to absorb excess rooftop generation. NYT: https://archive.is/t1uPj https://archive.is/t1uPj
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  For profit utility participants are desperately afraid of their return on equity being crushed by the new energy model, hence the need for strong political response from the citizenry. The grid can absolutely operate in the manner you describe, but profits will be diminished and investors will struggle to reach for previous profit potential unless you're in a non profit config (coop and whatnot). Shades of "The Innovator's Dilemma" and what not. Incumbents do not care for their gravy train being taken away. Edit: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40913 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40913 ("Investor-owned utilities served 72% of U.S. electricity customers in 2017") > Investor-owned utilities, or IOUs, are large electric distributors that issue stock owned by shareholders. Almost three-quarters of utility customers get their electricity from these companies. IOUs are most prevalent in heavily populated areas on the East and West coasts. In 2017, 168 IOUs served an average of 654,600 electric customers. The two largest IOUs are in California: Pacific Gas and Electric, with 5.48 million customers, and Southern California Edison Company, with 5.07 million customers.
- exabrial 2y ago
  So... exactly what the OP said?: They can't take any more solar input. They need battery I/O.
  - opprobium 2y ago
    No, not exactly. "the era of sending excess rooftop solar generation to the grid is over" is the OP's statement I disagree with. "They can't take any more solar input", yes they can, by adding more grid battery, which is currently happening.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Where are you reading that. the poster literally said "Worth noting that there isn't a lot of room for growth of solar that isn't battery-backed"
      - 2y ago
cameldrv 2y ago
It seems like the next major energy invention we need is long-term storage. Batteries have gotten much more cost effective, but you still need to amortize their costs over hundreds of charge-discharge cycles to get a payback. They're too expensive to store summer energy for the winter. If you had an energy storage technology that could store energy with a very low storage cost, even if it were very inefficient, you could make use of the massive coming excess of summer solar power.
- euroderf 2y ago
  hydrogen, methane, ammonia, molten salt, sand battery, ... so many tradeoffs
- shagie 2y ago
  https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumped-storage-hydropower https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumped-storage-hydropower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit... https://www.opb.org/article/2024/02/10/controversial-energy-project-moves-closer-to-breaking-ground/ https://www.opb.org/article/2024/02/10/controversial-energy-... > A controversial energy project in south central Washington is one step closer to breaking ground. A federal commission released its final environmental review for the Goldendale Energy Storage Project — to the consternation of several tribes and environmental groups. > The project is part of a potential solution to one of the biggest problems for renewable energy development: the variability of wind and solar. As the Northwest transitions off fossil fuels, power will need to be stored for when the sun doesn’t shine, and the wind doesn’t blow.
riku_iki 2y ago
> California exports a ton of energy during the bright months. cool, but prices for electricity in California still somehow 3 times higher than places where electricity is exported?..
- ak217 2y ago
  Electricity prices in California are 3x higher because of PG&E's monopoly on distribution combined with their wildfire risk liability from reckless power line building standards, not because of higher generation costs.
  - riku_iki 2y ago
    sure, but somehow distribution and reckless do not impact export prices?
    - ak217 2y ago
      Correct. That's the difference between the wholesale spot price on the open market and what PG&E charges consumers on their bill. There's lots of supply and less demand at noon in June compared to 6 pm in January. You're not going to get anywhere near average retail price for exports in either case, but especially not in the first one. Out of state buyers don't care about PG&E's liabilities either, they are choosing from competing suppliers. They are not captive to PG&E's monopoly the way consumers are, so PG&E has no hope of charging them their retail rate.
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Also bad forest management.

bardak 2y ago

I know BC hydro buys cheap power from other utilities to keep the reservoirs as full as possible. If California has excessive Solar power it could be used to keep the hydro reservoirs in BC, Washington, Oregon, and northern California full for other times.

tigerlily 2y ago
That could be quite a good reason to build an HVDC link between the two regions.
- briffle 2y ago
  There is already a 3GW HVDC line between The Dalles, OR, and LA. (one of the oldest HVDC links in the US). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie

opprobium 2y ago

If you look at that graph for a whole day you will see a huge kick-in of power company owned battery storage in the evening. There is no reason the grid cannot operate batteries at scale to absorb excess rooftop generation. NYT: https://archive.is/t1uPj https://archive.is/t1uPj

toomuchtodo 2y ago
For profit utility participants are desperately afraid of their return on equity being crushed by the new energy model, hence the need for strong political response from the citizenry. The grid can absolutely operate in the manner you describe, but profits will be diminished and investors will struggle to reach for previous profit potential unless you're in a non profit config (coop and whatnot). Shades of "The Innovator's Dilemma" and what not. Incumbents do not care for their gravy train being taken away. Edit: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40913 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=40913 ("Investor-owned utilities served 72% of U.S. electricity customers in 2017") > Investor-owned utilities, or IOUs, are large electric distributors that issue stock owned by shareholders. Almost three-quarters of utility customers get their electricity from these companies. IOUs are most prevalent in heavily populated areas on the East and West coasts. In 2017, 168 IOUs served an average of 654,600 electric customers. The two largest IOUs are in California: Pacific Gas and Electric, with 5.48 million customers, and Southern California Edison Company, with 5.07 million customers.
exabrial 2y ago
So... exactly what the OP said?: They can't take any more solar input. They need battery I/O.
- opprobium 2y ago
  No, not exactly. "the era of sending excess rooftop solar generation to the grid is over" is the OP's statement I disagree with. "They can't take any more solar input", yes they can, by adding more grid battery, which is currently happening.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Where are you reading that. the poster literally said "Worth noting that there isn't a lot of room for growth of solar that isn't battery-backed"
    - 2y ago

cameldrv 2y ago

It seems like the next major energy invention we need is long-term storage. Batteries have gotten much more cost effective, but you still need to amortize their costs over hundreds of charge-discharge cycles to get a payback. They're too expensive to store summer energy for the winter. If you had an energy storage technology that could store energy with a very low storage cost, even if it were very inefficient, you could make use of the massive coming excess of summer solar power.

euroderf 2y ago
hydrogen, methane, ammonia, molten salt, sand battery, ... so many tradeoffs
shagie 2y ago
https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumped-storage-hydropower https://www.energy.gov/eere/water/pumped-storage-hydropower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit... https://www.opb.org/article/2024/02/10/controversial-energy-project-moves-closer-to-breaking-ground/ https://www.opb.org/article/2024/02/10/controversial-energy-... > A controversial energy project in south central Washington is one step closer to breaking ground. A federal commission released its final environmental review for the Goldendale Energy Storage Project — to the consternation of several tribes and environmental groups. > The project is part of a potential solution to one of the biggest problems for renewable energy development: the variability of wind and solar. As the Northwest transitions off fossil fuels, power will need to be stored for when the sun doesn’t shine, and the wind doesn’t blow.

riku_iki 2y ago

> California exports a ton of energy during the bright months. cool, but prices for electricity in California still somehow 3 times higher than places where electricity is exported?..

ak217 2y ago
Electricity prices in California are 3x higher because of PG&E's monopoly on distribution combined with their wildfire risk liability from reckless power line building standards, not because of higher generation costs.
- riku_iki 2y ago
  sure, but somehow distribution and reckless do not impact export prices?
  - ak217 2y ago
    Correct. That's the difference between the wholesale spot price on the open market and what PG&E charges consumers on their bill. There's lots of supply and less demand at noon in June compared to 6 pm in January. You're not going to get anywhere near average retail price for exports in either case, but especially not in the first one. Out of state buyers don't care about PG&E's liabilities either, they are choosing from competing suppliers. They are not captive to PG&E's monopoly the way consumers are, so PG&E has no hope of charging them their retail rate.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Also bad forest management.