11 ms·

Revealed: Israeli spy chief 'threatened' ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry

134 points by zhengiszen 2y ago

nabla9 2y ago
Whatever you think of the merits of the charge, that's low.
WhackyIdeas 2y ago
Haven’t people learned yet, Israel should be able get away with ANYTHING they want in this world. Feeble International laws shouldn’t be applied to a country with the most moral army in the world! They deserve a free pass for what they’ve done and everything they are going to do. And anyone who disagrees is a bloody anti-semite, got it?!
- tharne 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - oglop 2y ago
    And women and children and innocent civilians. We will wipe out all your family if you mess with us! We dont Stand for terrorism!
  - seo-speedwagon 2y ago
    Leaving aside your despicable call for genocide, the threats and harassment by Israel, as described in this article, started in 2015.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    This has been going on since way before Oct 7. Not that Oct. 7 is an excuse to commit war crimes, and undermine international law, but in this instance, the timeline simply doesn’t even add up for that to be considered an excuse. > That investigation, launched in 2021, culminated last week when Bensouda’s successor, Karim Khan, announced that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu > The ICC case, however, dates back to 2015, when Bensouda decided to open a preliminary examination into the situation in Palestine. > Soon after commencing the preliminary examination, Bensouda and her senior prosecutors began to receive warnings that Israeli intelligence was taking a close interest in their work. > In December 2019, the prosecutor announced that she had grounds to open a full criminal investigation into allegations of war crimes in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. > Multiple sources said it was at this stage, as the judges considered the case, that Cohen escalated his attempts to persuade Bensouda not to pursue a full investigation in the event the judges gave her the green light. > Between late 2019 and early 2021, the sources said, there were at least three encounters between Cohen and Bensouda, all initiated by the spy chief. His behaviour is said to have become increasingly concerning to ICC officials.
  - WhackyIdeas 2y ago
    35,800 percent. And whenever our pesky conscience creeps up on us in the middle of the night, we should repeat your written mantra over and over until any ghost of impure antisemitism is ripped from our minds like the souls and limbs of tens of thousands of Gazan children would-be terrorists!
  - n4r9 2y ago
    It seems to me like Israel is being held to account here just as Russia is held to account for their war crimes in Ukraine and Saudi Arabia is held to account for their war crimes in Yemen. And if you ask me, Bush and Cheney ought to be held accountable for war crimes in Iraq despite what happened on 9-11.
    - spondylosaurus 2y ago
      I recently listened to a radio segment that aired in 2001 where they interviewed a woman who'd made it out of the WTC on 9/11, and after she recounted her incredibly harrowing tale, theh asked her what she thought about the nascent and seemingly inevitable war that the US was preparing to mount. You know, would it make her feel better to see us retaliate? What stuck out to me is how she said "Why would hurting a bunch of civilians overseas make me feel better about the ordeal I survived?"
  - mbivert 2y ago
    Wind can fan flames as well as extinguish them. Unironically, Musk's "turning the other cheek" revamp ("conspicuous acts of kindness") may have been a great way to fully eliminate the long-term threat. I'm far from convinced that what has happened instead is in favor of Israel. Hopefully still, in the end, the current mess will help separate the wheat from the tares, within both sides. Finding excuses to justify the murder of civilians is low and unwise, far remote from what the Jewish culture used to, and should be standing for.
  - endofreach 2y ago
    No, i know countless people who condemn a lot of the actions of the US. But what are you gonna do about it? That doesn't mean we should hold everyone to low standards. Also: the attacks on palestinian children are everything but eliminating the threat. Sure you can blame hamas for hiding behind civilians. If i you punch me and hide behind your toddler and i come and punch your toddler to death, it's your fault, right? I am still allowed to punch your toddler to death? Sorry for this obscene wording, but i think it's much worse than these words for the children in palestine. Of course it was also bad for the kids in israel. I wish no one had to die. But if people die in wars, at least let it be us grown up mean who get tricked into believing in causes to die for. Seriously, why can't just the whole of HN think about the 3-4 most influential people the know & organize a plan to bring orchestrated peace. I mean just if we reached out to all sysadmins in the world telling them to shut things down until the weapons are stopped or whatever... what is any of this worth if babies don't even live to their first birthday before getting to know German (& American) weapons fired at them from a country that was built to protect the people from things like that... Shouldn't the internet have something like this as a usecase? Bring power to the people? For what? To download whatever we want? Watch as much porn as we want? Or to actually have an impact & stop the madness? Come on... anybody at least thinking he/she'd support if we came up with an actual plan?
    - WhackyIdeas 2y ago
      Just to think that a multi $million chain of zero days courtesy of NSO Group is probably being used against you as I type.
      - endofreach 2y ago
        I am kind of proxying everything through an old iphone running with fake camera streams & fake requests to all kind of trendy NSFW sites & GPT generated conversations pretending to be SMS, Whatsapp & mails. So yeah, this makes the phone slow, but have fun finding truth in all this BS data, NSO!
    - spondylosaurus 2y ago
      The "hiding behind" narrative also breaks down when you consider that most civilians aren't even allowed to leave the Gaza strip unless they already have connections, can scrounge up a ton of money, or both. Like, it's a densely populated area with fewer and fewer "safe" zones. Where the hell else are people meant to go?
  - squarefoot 2y ago
    > If a country is attacked by a terrorist group, they are within their rights to a eliminate the threat. Yes, unless the response is way disproportionate. Gaza victim count is already 30 times higher than Oct 7th, and they're not going to stop soon. Israel has one of the most advanced armies in the world, still they resort to carpet bombings with no regards of the many innocents involved. They're no better than Hamas or Putin's Russia to me. The very reason of Israel invasion in Gaza isn't the life of prisoners (some of which they even killed with bombings) but to grab some more land, and Oct 7th gave them a very convenient excuse.
- shmatt 2y ago
  Luckily the NSA, GCHQ, DGSE, ASIO, and FIS don't exist. And if they did, they would never wiretap or hack anyone ever. Darn you Mossad!
  - iamthirsty 2y ago
    Kinda whataboutism, don't you think? Those aren't the organizations in question here.
    - aaplok 2y ago
      I never really understood why whataboutism is meant to be a universally rejected objection. In this particular case GGP hints that Israel gets favour treatment to gets away with anything. GP then retorts that others get away with as much, which is a valid objection to that claim, since it is invalidates the supposed Israeli exception. Neither GP nor GGP claimed that anybody should get away with crimes. Neither the claim nor the objection are backed by any argument so the whole thread isn't very illuminating, but it has become in fashion to bring up whataboutism against any attempt at contextualising the discussion and I find this a curious trend.
      - mlazos 2y ago
        Saying X is fine because everybody else is doing it is tiresome. It’s implied in the original argument that X is not okay regardless of how many entities are doing X, so obviously it isn’t okay in the other circumstances as well.
        devonsolomon 2y ago
        Yes - but. Whataboutism is often raised to illuminate the claimant’s topic selection bias - which is entirely valid. Often when someone’s arguments are valid and convincing, but their entire vocabulary seems confined to an issue, asking yourself a couple “whatabouts” may help you see biases inherent in the topic bias.
- scrubs 2y ago
  Well Israel has enough merits to back them considering what they're surrounded by. But that has limits. The Israeli Palestinian problem is complicated going back to WWI as one starting point. And from time to time I get extremely tired of both sides whining about how they're victims. Similarly, I wish she US would be done with the middle east and focus on china/Russia. I'm tired of us wasting resources there. At this point we all know what needs to happen. Isreal needs to empty its settlements; then two state solution where both sides mind their own business. Palestine, if they want control will also have commensurate accountability. So whether by action or inaction if hamas/iran/hezbolh screw stuff up, Palestine will be accountable. They're going to have to actually want to run it instead of being a pawn or playing short-termism footsies with terrorists. We have less leverage on hamas, and more on Isreal. But Isreal doesn't want a two state solution now. That's also a problem.
  - petre 2y ago
    > Similarly, I wish she US would be done with the middle east and focus on china/Russia. I'm tired of us wasting resources there. I'm sure all the employees of the 3 letter agencies dealing with these issues and presidential the advisors know better. It's a complex issue involving Iran. If Israel empties the settlements Hamas will keep attacking, just like Hezbollah does from Lebanon. However, most countries are fed up at this point and want a two state solution.
  - doron 2y ago
    China & Russia are heavily involved in the middle east as well as Africa. Much of the current war is also a proxy war with them. It's the same war
- KenArrari 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 2y ago
    When people write these kinds of comments by pulling random quotes out of the Quran, we rightly flag them as Islamophobic.
    - KenArrari 2y ago
      Yeah I wouldn't take someone picking out these verses of the Talmud as a serious criticism of Judaism, but this is someone who is jewish using that text to justify his actions.
seo-speedwagon 2y ago
The counterpart +972 Magazine article, which goes into more details on the communications interception side of this, was posted earlier as well. The articles are complementary, IMO https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40502432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40502432
- NomDePlum 2y ago
  Guardian have also published on this subject which I submitted but has been flagged for some reason: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40500023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40500023 On a side note, has anyone experienced submission posts URLs being changed/corrupted? Including above, correct link in the comments. Twice in the last month or so I've had submissions links go wrong. Each time wrongly pointing to the exact same Guardian article that I have never accessed (other than following the issue).
  - seo-speedwagon 2y ago
    The Guardian, +972 Magazine, and Local Call apparently jointly collaborated on this story, and all released their articles today (modulo local timezones). Multiple people have posted these articles today, most instances of which were flagged. The HN thread I linked above, in fact, has toggled between flagged and not-flagged at least twice already.
no_exit 2y ago
Wild stuff. Kudos to Bensouda for refusing to be intimidated.
xenospn 2y ago
I don’t get what Israel is doing here. They keep claiming the ICC has no jurisdiction and is a corrupt political organization, but also try to influence its inner workings and decision-making process. Also, seems like they picked the wrong target since they basically had nothing to pressure the prosecutor with, according to the report. The story is weird.
- NomDePlum 2y ago
  The story indicates plenty of pressure being applied does it not? Ranging from fabricated reputational damage, physical and psychological intimidation and attempts to threaten family members amongst other pressure being applied repeatedly over many years. For an individual does it get much worse than that? Particularly given the reputation of Israeli intelligence services.
  - xenospn 2y ago
    Are you telling me that the full weight of the Israeli government, coming directly from the Prime Minister’s office, and the best they could do is “this will be bad for your career”? Something here is missing.
    - netsharc 2y ago
      Wouldn't you be intimidated/spooked if someone showed you pictures of your spouse walking around? An outright threat in words would be stupid, unsubtle, and reportable; mere suggestions let the thugs get away with things. Although pictures probably already cross the line... I remember seeing a female friend in a park, she was apparently on a walk-around-town date with some guy from Tinder. I didn't want to interrupt so I didn't approach them. Then I thought it would be a funny prank to follow them around the city and take pictures, and send them to her later. And then I realized, WTF, no, it would be creepy...
    - NomDePlum 2y ago
      Is this a reply to my post, or the one above? I stated it was much more than risk to career so a bit puzzled.
YouWhy 2y ago
Modulo Israel's unpopularity: how would another nation state, say, Korea, act, if a non-state organization attempted to assert its authority to act in substantial force to override the authority of the nation state's government? It is my theory that, up to niceties, that such acts are a form of war; the nation's government would be under major pressure from its public to act in reciprocal force.
seu 2y ago
There's a good reason why "Israel, like the US, Russia and China, is not a member", and why Israel has engaged in spying them (and I would be surprised if the others didn't): they completely disregard any sort of global overwatch on their actions. Each of those states believe they are above everyone else.
- preommr 2y ago
  The countries you listed are basically all the world players that exert outside influence. It's easy for a country like Canada to sit on the sidelines and go along with orgs like the ICC since we're not really under threat, nor is it something we've grown into. Watch the ICC challenge Canada's sovereignty repeatedly on issues that we hold important, and see how fast our government decides not to recognize their authority.
  - brabel 2y ago
    The ICC is not challenging any country's sovereignty, it's prosecuting criminals whose crimes fall outside the jurisdiction of a single country. The fact that the US has "pressured" the ICC (while not even being a signatory) to not go after Israel, and that Israel has been harassing them, shows that the West is not at all on a higher ground morally than anyone else. They're doing the same thing: killing, waging unjustified wars, spying on and harassing people trying to do good. I am ashamed of what we, the collective West, are doing. The rule of law doesn't mean anything to us if it goes against our interests.
    - cooloo 2y ago
      If ICC was doing anything it would have charged the Iranian leadership for example. Yet in practice it's political organization with no morale.
      - runarberg 2y ago
        Iran is a signatory but not (yet) a party to the Rome Statute, and as such the ICC does not have jurisdiction in Iran unless explicitly given by Iran (similar to what Ukraine did following the Russian invasion). Palestine is a member, so crimes against humanity committed in the occupied territories are under the jurisdiction of the ICC. Don’t get me wrong. The Iranian government absolutely should go straight to the Hague for their crimes against the Iranian people. But this whataboutism does not dissolve the crimes of others.
tmnvix 2y ago
More than just hacked and spied on. They are also accused of intimidating the chief prosecutor and others. That's some chutzpah.
- jimbob45 2y ago
  The US hacked and spied on Angela Merkel's phone and nobody really cared or did anything.[0] [0]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/12/germany-drops-inquiry-into-claims-nsa-tapped-angela-merkels-phone https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/12/germany-drops-...
  - qeternity 2y ago
    Spoiler: all countries are surveilling each other.
    - dauertewigkeit 2y ago
      No way. I doubt a single EU country dares to spy on either the US or Israel. They are too scared to attempt that.
      - RandomLensman 2y ago
        Not so sure about that. Not all EU countries have shown a lot of deference to the US, for example.
        dauertewigkeit 2y ago
        I did a search and the only thing that I came up with is the Airbus/Boeing mutual industrial espionage. Funny because I'd have said, if there would be any country to dare to spy on the US, it would be France. Anyway, the number of incidents going in the other direction are much more numerous. In even EU country we have some parties that are more pro-West (pro-US) and others that are less, although nowadays, these latter are a minority. But openly criticizing US policy is not the same as spying on their dirty laundry.
mathieuh 2y ago
I hope the Israelis manage to kick out this government, reading about what some of them were up to is astonishing. Particularly Ben-Gvir[0], he seems like a horrible piece of work with his repeated calls for genocide, but none of the rest of them seem much better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir
- smcl 2y ago
  Do they not have the same problem as Russia, though? Kick out Netanyahu or Putin and another group of (potentially even more) unhinged psychos take power.
  - dmurray 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Protostome 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - jemmyw 2y ago
        Genocide as a legal term isn't just reserved for killing the entire population. Destroying the culture of a population is also genocide, and there is a greater argument that has happened given how much of Gaza has been levelled. The food situation could also constitute genocide if Israel is purposefully preventing aid supplies. There could be an intent to make Gaza unviable. > If Hamas had the capability to up-scale it's operations, it likely would have attempted to fulfill these aspects of its covenant and eradicate all jews. Both sides are perpetuating the hate for the next generation.
        firesteelrain 2y ago
        [flagged]
Protostome 2y ago
Assuming that's true—and it's a significant "if," given that every story has multiple perspectives and The Guardian's known critical stance toward Israel—such behavior by Israel would indeed be disgraceful. As an Israeli, I must clarify that the current government represents only a small minority. This minority has gained power through political maneuvering orchestrated by Netanyahu. It's important to note that there are daily demonstrations with thousands of protesters demanding a change in government. These actions are completely out of step with the desires and values of the broader Israeli populace.
- helpfulContrib 2y ago
  >As an Israeli, I can say that the current government represent a small minority that through political manipulation by Netanyahu has gained power. I sure hope this is true, although I have my doubts that it is a 'small minority'. A nation willfully ruled by war criminals always becomes their final victim.
- klyrs 2y ago
  > ... the current government represent a small minority that through political manipulation by Netanyahu has gained power. The only part of this sentence that's an Israeli thing is Netanyahu. Right wing hardliners don't get elected to power, they seize it.
- Teever 2y ago
  Benjamin Netanyahu has been PM of Israel for almost 17 years. Israel has been a state since 1948. 2023-1948 = 75 years. 16.66/75*100 = 22% of the existence of Israel. Think about that. One man has been the democratically elected leader of Israel for about 22% of the entire time it has existed. He is also the first prime minister to have been born in Israel after its establishment. In so many ways this man is the manifestation of the nation of Israel. Or maybe it could be better said that Israel is a manifestation of Benjamin Netanyahu? It would be interesting to work out the numbers on what percent of the entire Israeli population of all time voted for him and compare that with the percent of the entire Palestinian population that has existed from the same time period that voted for Hamas that one time Which IIRC was a vote that was only open to males 35+.
ggm 2y ago
Influence comes in many forms. The US has underfunded international agencies for decades if it differs from their posture. Things like women's reproductive rights can affect funds to agencies like the FAO.
Sabine1234567 2y ago
Its about time for economical sabctions against Israel to Guide it into a two state silution. Why is everyone afraid of that logical step ?
rogerian 2y ago
btw - its spelt Israel
- cykros 2y ago
  Indeed. Spelling it Isreal would give it an undeserved legitimacy.
Sabine1234567 2y ago
Its obvious that Bibi is a war criminal and this "Hell on earth" can only be stoppped by harsh economical sanctions. And of course every country should stop delivering weapons while condemning those actroceties. Words are not enough. Does noone has a moral Backbone ?
Sabine1234567 2y ago
Instead of getting lost in manipulative discussions about Hamas and Israels " right for self defense" ( 1200 killed Israelis against 36.000 killed Palästinians and 81.000 wounded ...) The traumatised and wounded felliw human beings can not even be treated, as almost all of their Hospitals have been destroyed. Its time to stop getting caught in Israels net. Why are no countries putting economic sanctions as this is the only logical reaction to Deal with this sadistic Land grap.
smitty1e 2y ago
Governments have been running plays on governments (and governmental organizations) since there were governments. Not a justification, just a statement of reality. If one thinks one's stuff secure, it may be.
jules-jules 2y ago
Getting the HN customary flagged status. Like clock work.
marve087 2y ago
[dead]

134 points by zhengiszen 2y ago

Whatever you think of the merits of the charge, that's low.

Haven’t people learned yet, Israel should be able get away with ANYTHING they want in this world. Feeble International laws shouldn’t be applied to a country with the most moral army in the world! They deserve a free pass for what they’ve done and everything they are going to do. And anyone who disagrees is a bloody anti-semite, got it?!

tharne 2y ago
[flagged]
- oglop 2y ago
  And women and children and innocent civilians. We will wipe out all your family if you mess with us! We dont Stand for terrorism!
- seo-speedwagon 2y ago
  Leaving aside your despicable call for genocide, the threats and harassment by Israel, as described in this article, started in 2015.
- runarberg 2y ago
  This has been going on since way before Oct 7. Not that Oct. 7 is an excuse to commit war crimes, and undermine international law, but in this instance, the timeline simply doesn’t even add up for that to be considered an excuse. > That investigation, launched in 2021, culminated last week when Bensouda’s successor, Karim Khan, announced that he was seeking an arrest warrant for the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu > The ICC case, however, dates back to 2015, when Bensouda decided to open a preliminary examination into the situation in Palestine. > Soon after commencing the preliminary examination, Bensouda and her senior prosecutors began to receive warnings that Israeli intelligence was taking a close interest in their work. > In December 2019, the prosecutor announced that she had grounds to open a full criminal investigation into allegations of war crimes in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. > Multiple sources said it was at this stage, as the judges considered the case, that Cohen escalated his attempts to persuade Bensouda not to pursue a full investigation in the event the judges gave her the green light. > Between late 2019 and early 2021, the sources said, there were at least three encounters between Cohen and Bensouda, all initiated by the spy chief. His behaviour is said to have become increasingly concerning to ICC officials.
- WhackyIdeas 2y ago
  35,800 percent. And whenever our pesky conscience creeps up on us in the middle of the night, we should repeat your written mantra over and over until any ghost of impure antisemitism is ripped from our minds like the souls and limbs of tens of thousands of Gazan children would-be terrorists!
- n4r9 2y ago
  It seems to me like Israel is being held to account here just as Russia is held to account for their war crimes in Ukraine and Saudi Arabia is held to account for their war crimes in Yemen. And if you ask me, Bush and Cheney ought to be held accountable for war crimes in Iraq despite what happened on 9-11.
  - spondylosaurus 2y ago
    I recently listened to a radio segment that aired in 2001 where they interviewed a woman who'd made it out of the WTC on 9/11, and after she recounted her incredibly harrowing tale, theh asked her what she thought about the nascent and seemingly inevitable war that the US was preparing to mount. You know, would it make her feel better to see us retaliate? What stuck out to me is how she said "Why would hurting a bunch of civilians overseas make me feel better about the ordeal I survived?"
- mbivert 2y ago
  Wind can fan flames as well as extinguish them. Unironically, Musk's "turning the other cheek" revamp ("conspicuous acts of kindness") may have been a great way to fully eliminate the long-term threat. I'm far from convinced that what has happened instead is in favor of Israel. Hopefully still, in the end, the current mess will help separate the wheat from the tares, within both sides. Finding excuses to justify the murder of civilians is low and unwise, far remote from what the Jewish culture used to, and should be standing for.
- endofreach 2y ago
  No, i know countless people who condemn a lot of the actions of the US. But what are you gonna do about it? That doesn't mean we should hold everyone to low standards. Also: the attacks on palestinian children are everything but eliminating the threat. Sure you can blame hamas for hiding behind civilians. If i you punch me and hide behind your toddler and i come and punch your toddler to death, it's your fault, right? I am still allowed to punch your toddler to death? Sorry for this obscene wording, but i think it's much worse than these words for the children in palestine. Of course it was also bad for the kids in israel. I wish no one had to die. But if people die in wars, at least let it be us grown up mean who get tricked into believing in causes to die for. Seriously, why can't just the whole of HN think about the 3-4 most influential people the know & organize a plan to bring orchestrated peace. I mean just if we reached out to all sysadmins in the world telling them to shut things down until the weapons are stopped or whatever... what is any of this worth if babies don't even live to their first birthday before getting to know German (& American) weapons fired at them from a country that was built to protect the people from things like that... Shouldn't the internet have something like this as a usecase? Bring power to the people? For what? To download whatever we want? Watch as much porn as we want? Or to actually have an impact & stop the madness? Come on... anybody at least thinking he/she'd support if we came up with an actual plan?
  - WhackyIdeas 2y ago
    Just to think that a multi $million chain of zero days courtesy of NSO Group is probably being used against you as I type.
    - endofreach 2y ago
      I am kind of proxying everything through an old iphone running with fake camera streams & fake requests to all kind of trendy NSFW sites & GPT generated conversations pretending to be SMS, Whatsapp & mails. So yeah, this makes the phone slow, but have fun finding truth in all this BS data, NSO!
  - spondylosaurus 2y ago
    The "hiding behind" narrative also breaks down when you consider that most civilians aren't even allowed to leave the Gaza strip unless they already have connections, can scrounge up a ton of money, or both. Like, it's a densely populated area with fewer and fewer "safe" zones. Where the hell else are people meant to go?
- squarefoot 2y ago
  > If a country is attacked by a terrorist group, they are within their rights to a eliminate the threat. Yes, unless the response is way disproportionate. Gaza victim count is already 30 times higher than Oct 7th, and they're not going to stop soon. Israel has one of the most advanced armies in the world, still they resort to carpet bombings with no regards of the many innocents involved. They're no better than Hamas or Putin's Russia to me. The very reason of Israel invasion in Gaza isn't the life of prisoners (some of which they even killed with bombings) but to grab some more land, and Oct 7th gave them a very convenient excuse.
shmatt 2y ago
Luckily the NSA, GCHQ, DGSE, ASIO, and FIS don't exist. And if they did, they would never wiretap or hack anyone ever. Darn you Mossad!
- iamthirsty 2y ago
  Kinda whataboutism, don't you think? Those aren't the organizations in question here.
  - aaplok 2y ago
    I never really understood why whataboutism is meant to be a universally rejected objection. In this particular case GGP hints that Israel gets favour treatment to gets away with anything. GP then retorts that others get away with as much, which is a valid objection to that claim, since it is invalidates the supposed Israeli exception. Neither GP nor GGP claimed that anybody should get away with crimes. Neither the claim nor the objection are backed by any argument so the whole thread isn't very illuminating, but it has become in fashion to bring up whataboutism against any attempt at contextualising the discussion and I find this a curious trend.
    - mlazos 2y ago
      Saying X is fine because everybody else is doing it is tiresome. It’s implied in the original argument that X is not okay regardless of how many entities are doing X, so obviously it isn’t okay in the other circumstances as well.
      - devonsolomon 2y ago
        Yes - but. Whataboutism is often raised to illuminate the claimant’s topic selection bias - which is entirely valid. Often when someone’s arguments are valid and convincing, but their entire vocabulary seems confined to an issue, asking yourself a couple “whatabouts” may help you see biases inherent in the topic bias.
scrubs 2y ago
Well Israel has enough merits to back them considering what they're surrounded by. But that has limits. The Israeli Palestinian problem is complicated going back to WWI as one starting point. And from time to time I get extremely tired of both sides whining about how they're victims. Similarly, I wish she US would be done with the middle east and focus on china/Russia. I'm tired of us wasting resources there. At this point we all know what needs to happen. Isreal needs to empty its settlements; then two state solution where both sides mind their own business. Palestine, if they want control will also have commensurate accountability. So whether by action or inaction if hamas/iran/hezbolh screw stuff up, Palestine will be accountable. They're going to have to actually want to run it instead of being a pawn or playing short-termism footsies with terrorists. We have less leverage on hamas, and more on Isreal. But Isreal doesn't want a two state solution now. That's also a problem.
- petre 2y ago
  > Similarly, I wish she US would be done with the middle east and focus on china/Russia. I'm tired of us wasting resources there. I'm sure all the employees of the 3 letter agencies dealing with these issues and presidential the advisors know better. It's a complex issue involving Iran. If Israel empties the settlements Hamas will keep attacking, just like Hezbollah does from Lebanon. However, most countries are fed up at this point and want a two state solution.
- doron 2y ago
  China & Russia are heavily involved in the middle east as well as Africa. Much of the current war is also a proxy war with them. It's the same war
KenArrari 2y ago
[flagged]
- tptacek 2y ago
  When people write these kinds of comments by pulling random quotes out of the Quran, we rightly flag them as Islamophobic.
  - KenArrari 2y ago
    Yeah I wouldn't take someone picking out these verses of the Talmud as a serious criticism of Judaism, but this is someone who is jewish using that text to justify his actions.

seo-speedwagon 2y ago

The counterpart +972 Magazine article, which goes into more details on the communications interception side of this, was posted earlier as well. The articles are complementary, IMO https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40502432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40502432

NomDePlum 2y ago
Guardian have also published on this subject which I submitted but has been flagged for some reason: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40500023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40500023 On a side note, has anyone experienced submission posts URLs being changed/corrupted? Including above, correct link in the comments. Twice in the last month or so I've had submissions links go wrong. Each time wrongly pointing to the exact same Guardian article that I have never accessed (other than following the issue).
- seo-speedwagon 2y ago
  The Guardian, +972 Magazine, and Local Call apparently jointly collaborated on this story, and all released their articles today (modulo local timezones). Multiple people have posted these articles today, most instances of which were flagged. The HN thread I linked above, in fact, has toggled between flagged and not-flagged at least twice already.

no_exit 2y ago

Wild stuff. Kudos to Bensouda for refusing to be intimidated.

xenospn 2y ago

I don’t get what Israel is doing here. They keep claiming the ICC has no jurisdiction and is a corrupt political organization, but also try to influence its inner workings and decision-making process. Also, seems like they picked the wrong target since they basically had nothing to pressure the prosecutor with, according to the report. The story is weird.

NomDePlum 2y ago
The story indicates plenty of pressure being applied does it not? Ranging from fabricated reputational damage, physical and psychological intimidation and attempts to threaten family members amongst other pressure being applied repeatedly over many years. For an individual does it get much worse than that? Particularly given the reputation of Israeli intelligence services.
- xenospn 2y ago
  Are you telling me that the full weight of the Israeli government, coming directly from the Prime Minister’s office, and the best they could do is “this will be bad for your career”? Something here is missing.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    Wouldn't you be intimidated/spooked if someone showed you pictures of your spouse walking around? An outright threat in words would be stupid, unsubtle, and reportable; mere suggestions let the thugs get away with things. Although pictures probably already cross the line... I remember seeing a female friend in a park, she was apparently on a walk-around-town date with some guy from Tinder. I didn't want to interrupt so I didn't approach them. Then I thought it would be a funny prank to follow them around the city and take pictures, and send them to her later. And then I realized, WTF, no, it would be creepy...
  - NomDePlum 2y ago
    Is this a reply to my post, or the one above? I stated it was much more than risk to career so a bit puzzled.

YouWhy 2y ago

Modulo Israel's unpopularity: how would another nation state, say, Korea, act, if a non-state organization attempted to assert its authority to act in substantial force to override the authority of the nation state's government? It is my theory that, up to niceties, that such acts are a form of war; the nation's government would be under major pressure from its public to act in reciprocal force.

seu 2y ago

There's a good reason why "Israel, like the US, Russia and China, is not a member", and why Israel has engaged in spying them (and I would be surprised if the others didn't): they completely disregard any sort of global overwatch on their actions. Each of those states believe they are above everyone else.

preommr 2y ago
The countries you listed are basically all the world players that exert outside influence. It's easy for a country like Canada to sit on the sidelines and go along with orgs like the ICC since we're not really under threat, nor is it something we've grown into. Watch the ICC challenge Canada's sovereignty repeatedly on issues that we hold important, and see how fast our government decides not to recognize their authority.
- brabel 2y ago
  The ICC is not challenging any country's sovereignty, it's prosecuting criminals whose crimes fall outside the jurisdiction of a single country. The fact that the US has "pressured" the ICC (while not even being a signatory) to not go after Israel, and that Israel has been harassing them, shows that the West is not at all on a higher ground morally than anyone else. They're doing the same thing: killing, waging unjustified wars, spying on and harassing people trying to do good. I am ashamed of what we, the collective West, are doing. The rule of law doesn't mean anything to us if it goes against our interests.
  - cooloo 2y ago
    If ICC was doing anything it would have charged the Iranian leadership for example. Yet in practice it's political organization with no morale.
    - runarberg 2y ago
      Iran is a signatory but not (yet) a party to the Rome Statute, and as such the ICC does not have jurisdiction in Iran unless explicitly given by Iran (similar to what Ukraine did following the Russian invasion). Palestine is a member, so crimes against humanity committed in the occupied territories are under the jurisdiction of the ICC. Don’t get me wrong. The Iranian government absolutely should go straight to the Hague for their crimes against the Iranian people. But this whataboutism does not dissolve the crimes of others.

tmnvix 2y ago

More than just hacked and spied on. They are also accused of intimidating the chief prosecutor and others. That's some chutzpah.

jimbob45 2y ago
The US hacked and spied on Angela Merkel's phone and nobody really cared or did anything.[0] [0]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/12/germany-drops-inquiry-into-claims-nsa-tapped-angela-merkels-phone https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/12/germany-drops-...
- qeternity 2y ago
  Spoiler: all countries are surveilling each other.
  - dauertewigkeit 2y ago
    No way. I doubt a single EU country dares to spy on either the US or Israel. They are too scared to attempt that.
    - RandomLensman 2y ago
      Not so sure about that. Not all EU countries have shown a lot of deference to the US, for example.
      - dauertewigkeit 2y ago
        I did a search and the only thing that I came up with is the Airbus/Boeing mutual industrial espionage. Funny because I'd have said, if there would be any country to dare to spy on the US, it would be France. Anyway, the number of incidents going in the other direction are much more numerous. In even EU country we have some parties that are more pro-West (pro-US) and others that are less, although nowadays, these latter are a minority. But openly criticizing US policy is not the same as spying on their dirty laundry.

mathieuh 2y ago

I hope the Israelis manage to kick out this government, reading about what some of them were up to is astonishing. Particularly Ben-Gvir[0], he seems like a horrible piece of work with his repeated calls for genocide, but none of the rest of them seem much better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir

smcl 2y ago
Do they not have the same problem as Russia, though? Kick out Netanyahu or Putin and another group of (potentially even more) unhinged psychos take power.
- dmurray 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Protostome 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jemmyw 2y ago
      Genocide as a legal term isn't just reserved for killing the entire population. Destroying the culture of a population is also genocide, and there is a greater argument that has happened given how much of Gaza has been levelled. The food situation could also constitute genocide if Israel is purposefully preventing aid supplies. There could be an intent to make Gaza unviable. > If Hamas had the capability to up-scale it's operations, it likely would have attempted to fulfill these aspects of its covenant and eradicate all jews. Both sides are perpetuating the hate for the next generation.
      - firesteelrain 2y ago
        [flagged]

Protostome 2y ago

Assuming that's true—and it's a significant "if," given that every story has multiple perspectives and The Guardian's known critical stance toward Israel—such behavior by Israel would indeed be disgraceful. As an Israeli, I must clarify that the current government represents only a small minority. This minority has gained power through political maneuvering orchestrated by Netanyahu. It's important to note that there are daily demonstrations with thousands of protesters demanding a change in government. These actions are completely out of step with the desires and values of the broader Israeli populace.

helpfulContrib 2y ago
>As an Israeli, I can say that the current government represent a small minority that through political manipulation by Netanyahu has gained power. I sure hope this is true, although I have my doubts that it is a 'small minority'. A nation willfully ruled by war criminals always becomes their final victim.
klyrs 2y ago
> ... the current government represent a small minority that through political manipulation by Netanyahu has gained power. The only part of this sentence that's an Israeli thing is Netanyahu. Right wing hardliners don't get elected to power, they seize it.
Teever 2y ago
Benjamin Netanyahu has been PM of Israel for almost 17 years. Israel has been a state since 1948. 2023-1948 = 75 years. 16.66/75*100 = 22% of the existence of Israel. Think about that. One man has been the democratically elected leader of Israel for about 22% of the entire time it has existed. He is also the first prime minister to have been born in Israel after its establishment. In so many ways this man is the manifestation of the nation of Israel. Or maybe it could be better said that Israel is a manifestation of Benjamin Netanyahu? It would be interesting to work out the numbers on what percent of the entire Israeli population of all time voted for him and compare that with the percent of the entire Palestinian population that has existed from the same time period that voted for Hamas that one time Which IIRC was a vote that was only open to males 35+.

ggm 2y ago

Influence comes in many forms. The US has underfunded international agencies for decades if it differs from their posture. Things like women's reproductive rights can affect funds to agencies like the FAO.

Sabine1234567 2y ago

Its about time for economical sabctions against Israel to Guide it into a two state silution. Why is everyone afraid of that logical step ?

rogerian 2y ago

btw - its spelt Israel

cykros 2y ago
Indeed. Spelling it Isreal would give it an undeserved legitimacy.

Sabine1234567 2y ago

Its obvious that Bibi is a war criminal and this "Hell on earth" can only be stoppped by harsh economical sanctions. And of course every country should stop delivering weapons while condemning those actroceties. Words are not enough. Does noone has a moral Backbone ?

Sabine1234567 2y ago

Instead of getting lost in manipulative discussions about Hamas and Israels " right for self defense" ( 1200 killed Israelis against 36.000 killed Palästinians and 81.000 wounded ...) The traumatised and wounded felliw human beings can not even be treated, as almost all of their Hospitals have been destroyed. Its time to stop getting caught in Israels net. Why are no countries putting economic sanctions as this is the only logical reaction to Deal with this sadistic Land grap.

smitty1e 2y ago

Governments have been running plays on governments (and governmental organizations) since there were governments. Not a justification, just a statement of reality. If one thinks one's stuff secure, it may be.

jules-jules 2y ago

Getting the HN customary flagged status. Like clock work.

marve087 2y ago

[dead]