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I would devote my time to building high quality, durable, and energy efficient 3bd 2ba homes in the rural areas surrounding major metropolitan areas, which I wo

I would devote my time to building high quality, durable, and energy efficient 3bd 2ba homes in the rural areas surrounding major metropolitan areas, which I would then sell at material cost. Buying my first home (mobile/manufactured) has been a combination of the best and worst thing I've ever done. The house cost nearly 3 times what my grandparents paid about ~30 years ago in the same neighborhood (on the same street!) while the construction and finish quality are sub-par at best, with a nearly endless list of things that are constantly in need of repair, multiple water intrusion issues, etc. To make matters worse, the housing market in the area I live has reached unreasonable levels, with my current home being 'valued' at 1.4x what I bought it for roughly 3 years ago. Additionally, I keep seeing homes built that are on monolithic slabs and nearly everyone I know personally who is a homeowner is having issues with their home's foundation due to the high movement soil (clay) even in recently built homes. I would build homes that use pier and beam foundations with piles deep enough to resist soil movement, ensure site drainage was appropriate for each home, and generally put all the necessary care and work into ensuring that each home built would last for multiple generations. I want to build homes that last and allow others to flourish without the litany of concerns I currently have to struggle with on-top of my day job.

camhart 2y ago
On nicer homes builders will sometimes put cylinders of concrete down from the slab towards bedrock. Then they pour the slab over top of them. I assume this helps prevent the movement. Not sure how this compares to p&b in cost. Just another option.
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  Well most slab foundations will have various types of footings that transfer the majority of the load to deeper soil that can support significantly higher PSF. The slab part of the foundation generally is meant only to transfer the load of the house onto these footings rather than support the weight itself, sort of like a desk transfers the weight of it's contents onto the legs. While this can help resist movement, it all depends on the drainage and expansion qualities of the soil where the bottom of the footer rests. If the area sees periods of extreme drought in highly expansive soil and the drought 'reaches' the bottom of the footer then you'll end up with significant movement as the weight of the foundation and home settles down into the void created by the now dry soil, while the opposite is true during periods of extremely heavy rainfall. When you combine periods of extreme drought and heavy rainfall in close succession of each other on highly expansive soils, pretty much any slab that is not supported by bedrock in some way will be at risk of cracking due to the frequent seasonal movement of the surrounding soil. This can be mitigated somewhat during periods of drought by 'watering' the areas surrounding the foundation, and during periods of heavy rainfall by having a properly graded home site that routes water away from the home in every direction. Unfortunately these are mitigations that require monitoring by homeowners who may not be aware of these issues at all. Ideally prior to building any permanent foundation a core sample would be obtained from the site and analyzed to determine the footer depth necessary to compensate for the 'worst case' rainfall and temperature fluctuation in that region, additionally accounting for local movement due to topography. Except most folks building out in my area are just trying to make as much money with as little investment as possible, and thus do just enough to not be liable if any of the above scenarios conspire to create problems for their long-since-forgotten customers.
GenerWork 2y ago
I've gotten into a habit of watching homebuilders on YouTube/reading about construction methods (especially with ICF forms), and it's been quite fun. Lots of advancements happening these days. As for foundation issues, I live in a Gulf Coast state 2 miles from the Gulf as the crow flies, and my crawlspace is so humid that I had to get it encapsulated. I have 2 dehumidifiers, and now that summer is here 1 of them runs 24/7. On the flip side, the deterioration has stopped, but now the joists and subloor are drying and warping (I was warned this would happen, though).
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  This probably edges into the industrial-control level of automation, but have you thought about hooking up your dehumidifiers to humidity sensors to maintain humidity at a specific level rather than an all-or-nothing approach? It's my understanding that wood rot occurs mainly due to frequent changes in moisture, the expansion and contraction causing breakdown of the wood fibers, while warping occurs when wood transitions between 'wet' and 'dry' too slowly/quickly/unevenly. Allowing the moisture to increase back to previous levels *may* reverse some or most of the warping that has occurred, followed with a gradual decrease in humidity with an adjustment period between changes using the aforementioned control system may allow you to find a happy medium and ease the wood into a more stable moisture content without having to deal with squeaky subfloors and uneven joists. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - GenerWork 2y ago
    >have you thought about hooking up your dehumidifiers to humidity sensors to maintain humidity at a specific level rather than an all-or-nothing approach? They have a knob on them that sets it to a specific humidity level, which I believe is 55 or 60 percent. >Allowing the moisture to increase back to previous levels may reverse some or most of the warping that has occurred Warping has already occurred on the joists due to the ridiculous levels of humidity in the crawl space, this is just more warping occurring. I'm talking like 90% or more humidity down there, and the moisture content of the joists were at 21% and mold was growing all over. At this point, I'm willing to take warping over the other path, which is having my joists rot out. Encapsulation is part 1, and part 2 will happen next year in the winter where I'll get beams and jacks installed.
gary_0 2y ago
Good answer! It's a massive societal failure that so few people are able to own a good house these days. It's 2024, we can build microchips virtually atom-by-atom, we can have plain English conversations with our computers about almost any topic, the number of billionaires has grown 20-fold since the 1980's, but the basic human need for shelter is a problem that is getting less solved by the day. It's perverse.
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  I completely agree. The incentives have aligned against the average home buyer receiving a good home, at multiple levels. Between the fundamental change in how homes are financed allowing for other market conditions to exaggerate the cost of homes and the decline of skilled labor interest / accessibility to young people such as myself... we have a state of affairs that makes a basic thing such as home ownership a significant problem for future generations.
theGnuMe 2y ago
Where do you live? The county or city should have codes for the foundation construction. If those are not sufficient I’d start there.
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  The codes are simply not sufficient. The codes simply dictate the minimum required to prevent significant loss of human life and property, but just as there is a vast gulf between "people dying and houses collapsing" and Things Are Up To Code™ there is too a vast gradient between the latter and Things Just Work™ When I first bought my house I tried to put in a warranty claim due to *MAJOR* deflection of subfloor in the kitchen and suspected water damage related to the installation of some plumbing. They refused to do anything unless I got the state involved; Literally they gave me the contact number for the state department responsible for ensuring everything was Good Enough™ Months later, nothing was fixed because according to the State as long as I can't stick my foot through a hole in the ground and get hurt there is nothing wrong. Never mind the fact that there is a slow water leak and the subfloor and joists are undergoing structural deterioration before I even moved in. Had I known the headache this would cause, and known I could have taken other legal recourse I would have lawyered up at this point, but I was a young 24 year old with a 2 year old and another child on the way. I didn't know what to expect, I trusted the State, I trusted the builder, I trusted the realtors who all told me it was Ok™. Up to code means it's safe to inhabit, not that you'd *want* to inhabit.
ActorNightly 2y ago
Ive actually did some market research into this. Turnkey container houses, built out on trailers (with enough facade to make it look good, but since its not a permanent dwelling you don't have to pay property tax on it). The big issue that I found is that people aren't actually interested in cheap houses, they just want something that is affordable at a discount but will grow in value, just like their parents did.
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  There is a lot of nuances to the issues I want to address, but you seem to be mistaking my fundamental goals. I don't want to "change" the housing market, or even build cheap houses. If the market says the cheapest house in a market is $250k then that is my budget ceiling for equipment and materials, while all labor is provided by myself and any like-minded individuals in a similarly absurd situation. The 'difference' I would be making is the invisible-to-the-market value created by putting the cost of labor and any expected profits back into making the home a standing testament to human engineering. There would be no marketing, no sales pitches, no brand or company associated with the construction of these homes. Simply going from place to place doing my best to make an insignificant difference at a societal scale and a silent but substantial difference to the families who eventually occupy those homes both now and in a hundred years.
- andrei_says_ 2y ago
  I am actually looking for such a solution. Would you care to share some of the players in this market?
  - natpalmer1776 2y ago
    Not the person you replied to, but given the logistics and local nature of relevant laws in construction there most likely isn't going to be a "recognized brand" that will give you a fair and reasonable price for anything except a traditional manufactured home that is governed under HUD manufactured housing program. (https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/housing/rmra/mhs https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/housing/rmra/mhs) Your best bet is to either find a company near you that specializes in tiny-homes and ask for a quote on a custom home that is built on a trailer (that you or the company sources) or simply buy an RV / Camper. At the end of the day though if you're looking for something that is 'ultra affordable' then you will want to build it yourself. For that scenario I can point you at a number of resources that would help you along that path, just email or text me using the contact info in my profile.
andrei_says_ 2y ago
I am reading this and I hope you find ways to engage in building homes! I sense true care and from true care arise true actions and the great satisfaction of doing a job right. I want more homes in the world built by people like you.
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  Thank you! My near-term goals are to build a new home for myself and then re-purpose as much of the raw materials that make up my current manufactured home to build 'tiny homes' for each of my two children (young) on the 2 acres I currently live. After that, who knows what life will throw my way :)

camhart 2y ago

On nicer homes builders will sometimes put cylinders of concrete down from the slab towards bedrock. Then they pour the slab over top of them. I assume this helps prevent the movement. Not sure how this compares to p&b in cost. Just another option.

natpalmer1776 2y ago
Well most slab foundations will have various types of footings that transfer the majority of the load to deeper soil that can support significantly higher PSF. The slab part of the foundation generally is meant only to transfer the load of the house onto these footings rather than support the weight itself, sort of like a desk transfers the weight of it's contents onto the legs. While this can help resist movement, it all depends on the drainage and expansion qualities of the soil where the bottom of the footer rests. If the area sees periods of extreme drought in highly expansive soil and the drought 'reaches' the bottom of the footer then you'll end up with significant movement as the weight of the foundation and home settles down into the void created by the now dry soil, while the opposite is true during periods of extremely heavy rainfall. When you combine periods of extreme drought and heavy rainfall in close succession of each other on highly expansive soils, pretty much any slab that is not supported by bedrock in some way will be at risk of cracking due to the frequent seasonal movement of the surrounding soil. This can be mitigated somewhat during periods of drought by 'watering' the areas surrounding the foundation, and during periods of heavy rainfall by having a properly graded home site that routes water away from the home in every direction. Unfortunately these are mitigations that require monitoring by homeowners who may not be aware of these issues at all. Ideally prior to building any permanent foundation a core sample would be obtained from the site and analyzed to determine the footer depth necessary to compensate for the 'worst case' rainfall and temperature fluctuation in that region, additionally accounting for local movement due to topography. Except most folks building out in my area are just trying to make as much money with as little investment as possible, and thus do just enough to not be liable if any of the above scenarios conspire to create problems for their long-since-forgotten customers.

GenerWork 2y ago

I've gotten into a habit of watching homebuilders on YouTube/reading about construction methods (especially with ICF forms), and it's been quite fun. Lots of advancements happening these days. As for foundation issues, I live in a Gulf Coast state 2 miles from the Gulf as the crow flies, and my crawlspace is so humid that I had to get it encapsulated. I have 2 dehumidifiers, and now that summer is here 1 of them runs 24/7. On the flip side, the deterioration has stopped, but now the joists and subloor are drying and warping (I was warned this would happen, though).

natpalmer1776 2y ago
This probably edges into the industrial-control level of automation, but have you thought about hooking up your dehumidifiers to humidity sensors to maintain humidity at a specific level rather than an all-or-nothing approach? It's my understanding that wood rot occurs mainly due to frequent changes in moisture, the expansion and contraction causing breakdown of the wood fibers, while warping occurs when wood transitions between 'wet' and 'dry' too slowly/quickly/unevenly. Allowing the moisture to increase back to previous levels *may* reverse some or most of the warping that has occurred, followed with a gradual decrease in humidity with an adjustment period between changes using the aforementioned control system may allow you to find a happy medium and ease the wood into a more stable moisture content without having to deal with squeaky subfloors and uneven joists. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- GenerWork 2y ago
  >have you thought about hooking up your dehumidifiers to humidity sensors to maintain humidity at a specific level rather than an all-or-nothing approach? They have a knob on them that sets it to a specific humidity level, which I believe is 55 or 60 percent. >Allowing the moisture to increase back to previous levels may reverse some or most of the warping that has occurred Warping has already occurred on the joists due to the ridiculous levels of humidity in the crawl space, this is just more warping occurring. I'm talking like 90% or more humidity down there, and the moisture content of the joists were at 21% and mold was growing all over. At this point, I'm willing to take warping over the other path, which is having my joists rot out. Encapsulation is part 1, and part 2 will happen next year in the winter where I'll get beams and jacks installed.

gary_0 2y ago

Good answer! It's a massive societal failure that so few people are able to own a good house these days. It's 2024, we can build microchips virtually atom-by-atom, we can have plain English conversations with our computers about almost any topic, the number of billionaires has grown 20-fold since the 1980's, but the basic human need for shelter is a problem that is getting less solved by the day. It's perverse.

natpalmer1776 2y ago
I completely agree. The incentives have aligned against the average home buyer receiving a good home, at multiple levels. Between the fundamental change in how homes are financed allowing for other market conditions to exaggerate the cost of homes and the decline of skilled labor interest / accessibility to young people such as myself... we have a state of affairs that makes a basic thing such as home ownership a significant problem for future generations.

theGnuMe 2y ago

Where do you live? The county or city should have codes for the foundation construction. If those are not sufficient I’d start there.

natpalmer1776 2y ago
The codes are simply not sufficient. The codes simply dictate the minimum required to prevent significant loss of human life and property, but just as there is a vast gulf between "people dying and houses collapsing" and Things Are Up To Code™ there is too a vast gradient between the latter and Things Just Work™ When I first bought my house I tried to put in a warranty claim due to *MAJOR* deflection of subfloor in the kitchen and suspected water damage related to the installation of some plumbing. They refused to do anything unless I got the state involved; Literally they gave me the contact number for the state department responsible for ensuring everything was Good Enough™ Months later, nothing was fixed because according to the State as long as I can't stick my foot through a hole in the ground and get hurt there is nothing wrong. Never mind the fact that there is a slow water leak and the subfloor and joists are undergoing structural deterioration before I even moved in. Had I known the headache this would cause, and known I could have taken other legal recourse I would have lawyered up at this point, but I was a young 24 year old with a 2 year old and another child on the way. I didn't know what to expect, I trusted the State, I trusted the builder, I trusted the realtors who all told me it was Ok™. Up to code means it's safe to inhabit, not that you'd *want* to inhabit.

ActorNightly 2y ago

Ive actually did some market research into this. Turnkey container houses, built out on trailers (with enough facade to make it look good, but since its not a permanent dwelling you don't have to pay property tax on it). The big issue that I found is that people aren't actually interested in cheap houses, they just want something that is affordable at a discount but will grow in value, just like their parents did.

natpalmer1776 2y ago
There is a lot of nuances to the issues I want to address, but you seem to be mistaking my fundamental goals. I don't want to "change" the housing market, or even build cheap houses. If the market says the cheapest house in a market is $250k then that is my budget ceiling for equipment and materials, while all labor is provided by myself and any like-minded individuals in a similarly absurd situation. The 'difference' I would be making is the invisible-to-the-market value created by putting the cost of labor and any expected profits back into making the home a standing testament to human engineering. There would be no marketing, no sales pitches, no brand or company associated with the construction of these homes. Simply going from place to place doing my best to make an insignificant difference at a societal scale and a silent but substantial difference to the families who eventually occupy those homes both now and in a hundred years.
andrei_says_ 2y ago
I am actually looking for such a solution. Would you care to share some of the players in this market?
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  Not the person you replied to, but given the logistics and local nature of relevant laws in construction there most likely isn't going to be a "recognized brand" that will give you a fair and reasonable price for anything except a traditional manufactured home that is governed under HUD manufactured housing program. (https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/housing/rmra/mhs https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/housing/rmra/mhs) Your best bet is to either find a company near you that specializes in tiny-homes and ask for a quote on a custom home that is built on a trailer (that you or the company sources) or simply buy an RV / Camper. At the end of the day though if you're looking for something that is 'ultra affordable' then you will want to build it yourself. For that scenario I can point you at a number of resources that would help you along that path, just email or text me using the contact info in my profile.

andrei_says_ 2y ago

I am reading this and I hope you find ways to engage in building homes! I sense true care and from true care arise true actions and the great satisfaction of doing a job right. I want more homes in the world built by people like you.

natpalmer1776 2y ago
Thank you! My near-term goals are to build a new home for myself and then re-purpose as much of the raw materials that make up my current manufactured home to build 'tiny homes' for each of my two children (young) on the 2 acres I currently live. After that, who knows what life will throw my way :)