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I used to frown at Toyota for being behind in electric. But I think they are probably more clever than I. They realize that there is still a huge chunk of the

I used to frown at Toyota for being behind in electric. But I think they are probably more clever than I. They realize that there is still a huge chunk of the market with people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV. So what matters to them is lowering fuel consumption. EVs are cool, but when it comes to actually buying a car, most people follow what makes most sense economically.

ProllyInfamous 2y ago
I have infrastructure to easily install an EV charger, but I still prefer hybrid setups because they are more convenient on roadtrips. My recently-acquired Camry Hybrid is a dream to drive, and gets 50+ mpg. I traded in my turbocharged subaru for this eco-friendly sleeper, and it is a better driving experience. All 2025 Camry's can become AWD for ~$1400 OEM.
- NikolaNovak 2y ago
  I agree with everything you said, but note Toyota awd and Subaru awd are light years apart depending on your preference and requirements. If you need awd to occasionally kick in when you're stuck in the driveway, Toyota awd is fine. If you want a predictable drivetrain that's either reliable in prolonged low-traction conditions, or is fun to drive, Toyota's hybrid/automatic/part time awd likely isn't the right choice. ("source" - owned multiple both, plus their basic design and goals/compromises are fundamentally different)
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    Thanks for sharing your experiences. IIRC, my first subaru (2006 WRX) operated as a FWD vehicle with rear traction assist. Perhaps the newer "beauties of all wheel drive" have better power distribution? That I will never again own a center differential to again repair, leaves me energized. For certain, the Camry is always primarily FWD, with minimal rear assist (but helpful, no doubt).
    - NikolaNovak 2y ago
      Unless I'm mistaken, 2006 wrx would've had a limited slip differential in centre and rear, and open differential up front (I drove a 2004 until last year:). Type of centre differential would depend on whether you had manual or automatic transmission (viscous rear regardless) , but either way 1. It would've been in full awd mode all the time with power sent to all the wheels at all times under normal circumstances, and 2. In lose traction situation, you would've had at least one front and both rear wheels moving. It was a fairly predictable drivetrain with essentially "guaranteed" rear wheel movement. I'm omitting some fun and nerdy details here, but it should not have behaved as a primarily fwd car :-/ Is your Camry a hybrid? You mentioned it doesn't have differential, and I must admit my experience has been with gasoline traditional toyotas. I have no experience with the hybrid Toyotas and they may well be more predictable :)
      - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
        It was an automatic 2006 92x; I remember there was a fuse one could remove and it would make the vehicle 100% FWD. The Camry Hybrid does have a front differential; the p710 "transmission" within it is one of the prettiest electromechanical couplings I know [1]. Over 17,000RPM limit on electric MG2's stator. [1] p610/710/810 theory of operation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc-_E8xWnM&t=651 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc-_E8xWnM&t=651 The RWD is provided by an isolated rear electric motor.
- natch 2y ago
  Nobody needs an EV charger. All you need is a 220 outlet and a cable. And if you have a Supercharger nearby as a backup and don't drive much, all you need is a 110 outlet and a cable. The cables I refer to cost around $200 for a good one.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    The point is that once you depend on a supercharger, the price of the EV is not that attractive anymore.
    - natch 2y ago
      Relative to gas it’s still good in some locales. But it depends on your local Supercharger pricing (e.g. 11 cents per KwH in PDX, hard to beat that) and your local gas price. Ymmv.
      - fifilura 2y ago
        In Europe it is more like 50-60c/kWh and with 2kWh/10km it is getting pretty close to gas prices. Particularly if you compare with an ultra low consumer like Prius or similar.
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    >220 outlet and a cable == one type of "EV Charger"
ricardobayes 2y ago
Toyota is one of the few, truly global car brands. And let's face it, a majority of the world is not ready for self-driving or EVs, infrastructure-wise. It would be better if more companies would start designing products for the "other" 6 billion people.
theshrike79 2y ago
> They realize that there is still a huge chunk of the market with people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV. If you have a designated parking spot, there are no technical reasons why you can't charge at home. Only political ones. Roadside parking is a problem. There are some attempted solutions (Type2 charging from light posts for example, but nothing that scales)
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  There is no technical reason you can't build a bridge from portugal to new york. The only question is, what is cheaper, literally billions of charging stations + all the needed infrastructure, or that bridge.
  - theshrike79 2y ago
    My point was that if someone in an apartment complex with a dedicated parking spot has the money and willingness to install a charger, there are no technical reasons why they can't. Most likely either someone in building management or the landlord will block it from happening for some inane reason. Thus: politics is the reason why this isn't happening. Over here there are laws coming into place that every public parking location must have a certain percentage of chargers. It used to be voluntary (a recommendation), but companies were dragging their feet. Now it's not optional any more. It's not like adding a 22kW Type 2 charger will break the bank for any decent business. There are even businesses that'll 100% do it for you if you provide the parking spot - but they also take most of the profits.
- NikolaNovak 2y ago
  >>If you have a designated parking spot, there are no technical reasons why you can't charge at home. That's... "technically" correct, lol? There's no reason from perspective of natural laws of universe one cannot install a charger in the parking sport of their 30 year old 30 stories condominium or better yet apartment parking spot. There are a myriad legal, practical, procedural, permission, process, safety, standards, and other reasons. But you're technically correct, there are technically no technical reasons :).
sandworm101 2y ago
>> people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV. 20+ years ago, when this electric car transition was being envisioned, everyone thought electric cars would be tiny/cheap things marketed to poor people. The UK even made them exempt from congestion charges. Nobody thought the market would be dominated by enormous/heavy vehicles driven by wealthy homeowners. I know a couple people with EVs who live in apartments. Both compare owning an EV to owning a horse. Several hours of their day is dedicated to managing their their vehicle's charge status. The idea of just plugging it in overnight as you sleep, that is a privilege for those that can afford to purchase a house.
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  The bigger problem here is, that EVs suck for long drives, especially in places with not enough infrastructure. So, if you're rich, you buy a tesla (or whatever electric car) for daily commutes and short-distance driving, and then have another car to drive across europe for vacations, etc. Maybe even a third, a pickup truck or something, for when you need to transport something large. If you're not rich, you buy a renault clio or something else cheap and gasoline powered, because it does most of what you need and it's a lot cheaper than the alternaties.
  - sandworm101 2y ago
    The maintenance lottery is also a big issue. An aging IC car will require occasional work, but there is basically nothing on an small car IC that cannot be fixed for a couple thousand dollars. EVs might have lower maintenance costs, but stories about epic 10/20k repair jobs for anything associated with an EV's battery gives not-rich people nightmares.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    I've done 4 3000km drives in a Tesla. A Tesla is an awesome road trip vehicle. Others will be too once they get access to the supercharger network.
newzisforsukas 2y ago
> So what matters to them is lowering fuel consumption. For many of their cars, I don't think this matters that much to Toyota: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2023.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2023.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2013.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2013.shtml
- michaelrpeskin 2y ago
  My daily driver is an ‘89 4Runner that gets about the same milage. That sounds bad in this climate, but for 35 years and nearly 300,000 miles I have not had to spend the energy/resources/carbon to build another vehicle and dispose of this one. From my experiences Toyota tends to over engineer on the reliability side rather than optimizing for fuel efficiency. It’s all trade offs. You can tune the engine that may not be as fuel efficient but it may last longer.
  - newzisforsukas 2y ago
    According to random online sources, that is around 150 metric tons of CO2e and it takes around 10 metric tons for a vehicle to be manufactured.
itishappy 2y ago
> people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV I think people tend to overestimate charging requirements. Extension cords are cheap. That'll get you 30-40 miles per day. That's plenty for most drivers. My commute is 10 miles both ways. My neighbors in my townhome complex charge from their 120V adapter overnight. My friend in a single-family home hasn't even set up home charging, just drives to a supercharger and grabs a burger.
- fifilura 2y ago
  > just drives to a supercharger and grabs a burger. Sure, but what do they pay? (not including the burger)
  - itishappy 2y ago
    Less than I do for gas.
    - fifilura 2y ago
      Yes, but you also paid $10k more for the car? And is it more if you compare it with e.g. a used Toyota Prius?
      - itishappy 2y ago
        I'm not sure how that's relevant. Telsas are luxury cars, and my friend lives a luxury life. He pays 33% more for electricity at a supercharger, and it's still cheaper than gas. A Prius is the same price as a BYD, and the 40mi electric range is the same you'll get from overnight level 1 charging, so daily use can be the same price.
        fifilura 2y ago
        Ok, so maybe Toyota miscalculated because of the Chinese price dumps? But note that I was not refering to the luxury case in my original post.
r00fus 2y ago
If Toyota were serious about apartment life, they would be doing like BYD and offering a series-hybrid with a lot more range (BYD offers 2k km, I think 1k km would be fantastic).

ProllyInfamous 2y ago

I have infrastructure to easily install an EV charger, but I still prefer hybrid setups because they are more convenient on roadtrips. My recently-acquired Camry Hybrid is a dream to drive, and gets 50+ mpg. I traded in my turbocharged subaru for this eco-friendly sleeper, and it is a better driving experience. All 2025 Camry's can become AWD for ~$1400 OEM.

NikolaNovak 2y ago
I agree with everything you said, but note Toyota awd and Subaru awd are light years apart depending on your preference and requirements. If you need awd to occasionally kick in when you're stuck in the driveway, Toyota awd is fine. If you want a predictable drivetrain that's either reliable in prolonged low-traction conditions, or is fun to drive, Toyota's hybrid/automatic/part time awd likely isn't the right choice. ("source" - owned multiple both, plus their basic design and goals/compromises are fundamentally different)
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  Thanks for sharing your experiences. IIRC, my first subaru (2006 WRX) operated as a FWD vehicle with rear traction assist. Perhaps the newer "beauties of all wheel drive" have better power distribution? That I will never again own a center differential to again repair, leaves me energized. For certain, the Camry is always primarily FWD, with minimal rear assist (but helpful, no doubt).
  - NikolaNovak 2y ago
    Unless I'm mistaken, 2006 wrx would've had a limited slip differential in centre and rear, and open differential up front (I drove a 2004 until last year:). Type of centre differential would depend on whether you had manual or automatic transmission (viscous rear regardless) , but either way 1. It would've been in full awd mode all the time with power sent to all the wheels at all times under normal circumstances, and 2. In lose traction situation, you would've had at least one front and both rear wheels moving. It was a fairly predictable drivetrain with essentially "guaranteed" rear wheel movement. I'm omitting some fun and nerdy details here, but it should not have behaved as a primarily fwd car :-/ Is your Camry a hybrid? You mentioned it doesn't have differential, and I must admit my experience has been with gasoline traditional toyotas. I have no experience with the hybrid Toyotas and they may well be more predictable :)
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
      It was an automatic 2006 92x; I remember there was a fuse one could remove and it would make the vehicle 100% FWD. The Camry Hybrid does have a front differential; the p710 "transmission" within it is one of the prettiest electromechanical couplings I know [1]. Over 17,000RPM limit on electric MG2's stator. [1] p610/710/810 theory of operation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc-_E8xWnM&t=651 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHc-_E8xWnM&t=651 The RWD is provided by an isolated rear electric motor.
natch 2y ago
Nobody needs an EV charger. All you need is a 220 outlet and a cable. And if you have a Supercharger nearby as a backup and don't drive much, all you need is a 110 outlet and a cable. The cables I refer to cost around $200 for a good one.
- fifilura 2y ago
  The point is that once you depend on a supercharger, the price of the EV is not that attractive anymore.
  - natch 2y ago
    Relative to gas it’s still good in some locales. But it depends on your local Supercharger pricing (e.g. 11 cents per KwH in PDX, hard to beat that) and your local gas price. Ymmv.
    - fifilura 2y ago
      In Europe it is more like 50-60c/kWh and with 2kWh/10km it is getting pretty close to gas prices. Particularly if you compare with an ultra low consumer like Prius or similar.
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  >220 outlet and a cable == one type of "EV Charger"

ricardobayes 2y ago

Toyota is one of the few, truly global car brands. And let's face it, a majority of the world is not ready for self-driving or EVs, infrastructure-wise. It would be better if more companies would start designing products for the "other" 6 billion people.

theshrike79 2y ago

> They realize that there is still a huge chunk of the market with people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV. If you have a designated parking spot, there are no technical reasons why you can't charge at home. Only political ones. Roadside parking is a problem. There are some attempted solutions (Type2 charging from light posts for example, but nothing that scales)

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
There is no technical reason you can't build a bridge from portugal to new york. The only question is, what is cheaper, literally billions of charging stations + all the needed infrastructure, or that bridge.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  My point was that if someone in an apartment complex with a dedicated parking spot has the money and willingness to install a charger, there are no technical reasons why they can't. Most likely either someone in building management or the landlord will block it from happening for some inane reason. Thus: politics is the reason why this isn't happening. Over here there are laws coming into place that every public parking location must have a certain percentage of chargers. It used to be voluntary (a recommendation), but companies were dragging their feet. Now it's not optional any more. It's not like adding a 22kW Type 2 charger will break the bank for any decent business. There are even businesses that'll 100% do it for you if you provide the parking spot - but they also take most of the profits.
NikolaNovak 2y ago
>>If you have a designated parking spot, there are no technical reasons why you can't charge at home. That's... "technically" correct, lol? There's no reason from perspective of natural laws of universe one cannot install a charger in the parking sport of their 30 year old 30 stories condominium or better yet apartment parking spot. There are a myriad legal, practical, procedural, permission, process, safety, standards, and other reasons. But you're technically correct, there are technically no technical reasons :).

sandworm101 2y ago

>> people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV. 20+ years ago, when this electric car transition was being envisioned, everyone thought electric cars would be tiny/cheap things marketed to poor people. The UK even made them exempt from congestion charges. Nobody thought the market would be dominated by enormous/heavy vehicles driven by wealthy homeowners. I know a couple people with EVs who live in apartments. Both compare owning an EV to owning a horse. Several hours of their day is dedicated to managing their their vehicle's charge status. The idea of just plugging it in overnight as you sleep, that is a privilege for those that can afford to purchase a house.

ajsnigrutin 2y ago
The bigger problem here is, that EVs suck for long drives, especially in places with not enough infrastructure. So, if you're rich, you buy a tesla (or whatever electric car) for daily commutes and short-distance driving, and then have another car to drive across europe for vacations, etc. Maybe even a third, a pickup truck or something, for when you need to transport something large. If you're not rich, you buy a renault clio or something else cheap and gasoline powered, because it does most of what you need and it's a lot cheaper than the alternaties.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  The maintenance lottery is also a big issue. An aging IC car will require occasional work, but there is basically nothing on an small car IC that cannot be fixed for a couple thousand dollars. EVs might have lower maintenance costs, but stories about epic 10/20k repair jobs for anything associated with an EV's battery gives not-rich people nightmares.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  I've done 4 3000km drives in a Tesla. A Tesla is an awesome road trip vehicle. Others will be too once they get access to the supercharger network.

newzisforsukas 2y ago

> So what matters to them is lowering fuel consumption. For many of their cars, I don't think this matters that much to Toyota: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2023.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2023.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2013.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Toyota2013.shtml

michaelrpeskin 2y ago
My daily driver is an ‘89 4Runner that gets about the same milage. That sounds bad in this climate, but for 35 years and nearly 300,000 miles I have not had to spend the energy/resources/carbon to build another vehicle and dispose of this one. From my experiences Toyota tends to over engineer on the reliability side rather than optimizing for fuel efficiency. It’s all trade offs. You can tune the engine that may not be as fuel efficient but it may last longer.
- newzisforsukas 2y ago
  According to random online sources, that is around 150 metric tons of CO2e and it takes around 10 metric tons for a vehicle to be manufactured.

itishappy 2y ago

> people living in apartments without cheap possibility to charge the EV I think people tend to overestimate charging requirements. Extension cords are cheap. That'll get you 30-40 miles per day. That's plenty for most drivers. My commute is 10 miles both ways. My neighbors in my townhome complex charge from their 120V adapter overnight. My friend in a single-family home hasn't even set up home charging, just drives to a supercharger and grabs a burger.

fifilura 2y ago
> just drives to a supercharger and grabs a burger. Sure, but what do they pay? (not including the burger)
- itishappy 2y ago
  Less than I do for gas.
  - fifilura 2y ago
    Yes, but you also paid $10k more for the car? And is it more if you compare it with e.g. a used Toyota Prius?
    - itishappy 2y ago
      I'm not sure how that's relevant. Telsas are luxury cars, and my friend lives a luxury life. He pays 33% more for electricity at a supercharger, and it's still cheaper than gas. A Prius is the same price as a BYD, and the 40mi electric range is the same you'll get from overnight level 1 charging, so daily use can be the same price.
      - fifilura 2y ago
        Ok, so maybe Toyota miscalculated because of the Chinese price dumps? But note that I was not refering to the luxury case in my original post.

r00fus 2y ago

If Toyota were serious about apartment life, they would be doing like BYD and offering a series-hybrid with a lot more range (BYD offers 2k km, I think 1k km would be fantastic).