5 ms·

This OS might be the biggest Microsoft flop ever. There are just way too many fundamental changes which are not proven to be actually better. I would rather s

by lubos 14y ago

This OS might be the biggest Microsoft flop ever. There are just way too many fundamental changes which are not proven to be actually better. I would rather see new Metro UI as another full-screen app to see if it can stand on its own before they go all-in with it. Something similar to what Microsoft did with Windows 3.10 which was basically another DOS program. I guess, Microsoft is being run by different folks today.

melling 14y ago
It'll ship on almost 90% of desktop PC's and there are millions of ageing PC's running XP that have to be near the end of their useful life. In short, how big of a flop could it be?
- 9999 14y ago
  The potential for a big flop is that instead of buying a PC to replace that aging XP box, the customer will just buy an iPad.
  - Splines 14y ago
    "Hey, look, there's a Windows iPad too. I liked my Windows computer before it just wouldn't turn on anymore, I should try one of those."
  - rosstafarian 14y ago
    heh funny you say that, I do some residential work on the side and lately every time i tell a customer it's time for a new laptop, a good 90% ask "what about an ipad?"
  - commandar 14y ago
    Bingo. I think this could be a huge threat to Microsoft in enterprise use. What happens when ISVs decide to just target web apps rather than rewrite to Windows Runtime?
  - blvr 14y ago
    People are moving to smart phones and tablets anyway. Not because Windows has changed too much, just because they're easier and more convenient.And that's why we have Metro: if Microsoft doesn't follow their customers they're going to lose them.
flyt 14y ago
This OS might be the biggest Apple flop ever. There are just way too many fundamental changes which are not proven to be actually better. I would rather see new iOS touch UI as another full-screen app to see if it can stand on its own before they go all-in with it. Something similar to what Apple did with Classic which was basically another pre-OS X program. I guess, Apple is being run by different folks today.
- pvidler 14y ago
  The difference is that Windows 8 is an upgrade that will replace older versions entirely. Apple's users who didn't like iOS could stick with Mac OS X, but getting back to old-style Windows from Metro looks tricky (if it can be fully achieved at all). The Classic to OS X transition is a much closer match, except that Apple didn't really attempt to change the way you interacted with the computer at that time (it was/is still basically a WIMP interface). That's not to say that Microsoft will fail, or that Metro will be worse than the Windows 7 GUI. It's certainly going to be more interesting than the average OS launch, but my gut feeling is that the reaction to this will match the reaction to the Office ribbon.
- anextio 14y ago
  Apple made the bet that there's a fundamental difference between the mobile experience and the desktop experience. They didn't replace OS X with iOS, they each exist as expressions of a different type of computing, for different purposes. Microsoft are attempting to provide one system as a single expression of both types of paradigm, and this is why the jury is out on Windows 8.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    >"Apple made the bet that there's a fundamental difference between the mobile experience and the desktop experience." It's a bet they may have gotten wrong from a technical debt standpoint.
    - glhaynes 14y ago
      What do you mean?
billpatrianakos 14y ago
Oh boy, here comes the obligatory HN-contrarianism and knee-jerk Microsoft bashing. I dislike Microsoft, in particular, Windows, as much as the next guy but you can't just throw out blanket statements like that with nothing to support them. Why will this be such a flop? Are you maybe exaggerating? If it is because of the fundamental changes you mention? Which ones in particular and how are they not proven to be better? I'm not defending Windows8 at all. Like I said, I'm no Microsoft fan myself but even I can give them credit for some of the things they're doing in Windows8. I think it'd be far more constructive to give us some specifics so that we can have a real discussion rather than throwing out generalizations that'll turn this into another religious debate.
- lubos 14y ago
  I'm not bashing Microsoft. Windows is my primary platform, all I'm saying is that I'm disappointed at how radical Microsoft is becoming. 99.9999% of applications for Windows are not going to look like Metro apps including flagship products like MS Office. So Metro is going to get in the way most of the time. I'm not sure what desktop users should really appreciate about Windows 8.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    I'm disappointed at how radical Microsoft is becoming. This makes me laugh. It was not long ago, not long ago at all, everybody was complaining about how old-fashioned and unresponsive Microsoft was being.
    - gaelian 14y ago
      Exactly. I would rather see them err on the side of radicalism at this point. I have primarily been a Mac user for the last couple of years (whenever I have a choice about it), but I'd love to see MS start making its self more relevant again. I feel the consumers (i.e. my) interestes are best served when progress from the tech giants are spurred on by their competition. Not when a single platform has the majority of mind share in terms of perceived innovation.
  - 14y ago
jjcm 14y ago
Disagree. It will be the biggest investment in research Microsoft has placed in the mainstream market to date. Windows 8 is effectively a research project. Microsoft wants to know and understand how people will be using different modalities in their everyday work. Windows 8 will have huge issues, no doubt, but Microsoft will learn enormous amounts from it. Metro is a smart move - window chrome is unnecessary, and takes up more space than it should. Moving to a tighter and more relevant UI will prove beneficial in the long run. It will also test out some of the more tablet friendly interfaces, and most importantly Microsoft will learn how and why those fail in the desktop settings (and how to fix that). These are unknowns right now; Microsoft is going all in so they can discover them. That said, Metro dashboard aside, it's a nice OS. If you stay in the desktop mode it's really just a faster and more stable version of windows 7. I've been using it as my primary OS for the last few months. The lack of a start menu will confuse people at first, but the keyboard driven execution of programs should be a welcomed change for many power users. There will certainly be a backlash from users, much like there was from Vista. Down the road though, I can see Windows 9 learning a ton from 8. That's where I see the true value of Windows 8. Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft.
- tnash 14y ago
  I like your point about the backlash being like Vista, considering that I thought Vista was a fine OS. However, I think that was more of a jump sideways whereas this is more of a jump forwards/backwards. I haven't used it since the dev preview, but I'm looking forward to putting this on one machine and trying it out. I'm hoping for a lot more customization. I don't understand why that's being taken out of every modern operating system. The biggest thing I dislike about Windows Phone is that I can't change the tiles to be non-insane colored. I just want them to be white, dammit! I'm hoping that level of customization is present in Win 8, but I have a sinking feeling that it will not be.
- polshaw 14y ago
  I believe the windows 8 naysayers will be proved very wrong, people will come to love windows 8, at least on the desktop. Take the start screen.. people are struggling to come to terms with it, but conceptionally it is so much better. Take the current start menu-- what are the usability problems? -- nested folders, stuff like uninstallers squatting there, small mouse target. The new start screen tackles all these issues, whist still keeping the keyboard/search support (what most here have been doing since vista no doubt). Why should the start area not fill the screen? Similarly, there is no point in a little windows logo/button bottom left.
Negitivefrags 14y ago
To call Windows 3.1 "basically another DOS program" is to call Linux "basically another GRUB program".
- drcube 14y ago
  No, it's more like saying "GNOME is basically another Linux program". Which is true.
brudgers 14y ago
>"There are just way too many fundamental changes which are not proven to be actually better." I suspect that Microsoft has mountains of statistical data to support the statement "Metro is a better user interface." Anecdotally, I'd agree. How that translates into the market is of course another story. And if history is a guide, it will translate slowly just like every other operating system Microsoft has released since...well forever. In four years when Windows 9 rolls out, we'll still be hearing about people running XP (confession: my oldest laptop runs 2000 when I fire it up). It's not a big deal for Microsoft because they don't really make money by breaking old hardware via an OS push on a three year cycle like Apple does. Their big money comes from stable relationships with enterprise with manufacturers and their business model supports supporting legacy systems. BTW, there's no way to top Clippy.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
Stark2 14y ago
What sells this os to me, is that it will be an option to Android and the Ipad. Both of these fail in certain areas related to playing windows media content. A lot of radio stations,and a lot of Windows media content will not work with iOs or Android. But they do work with Windows 7 and hopefully Windows 8. I will ditch my android tablet for a Windows 8 tablet in a heartbeat, if my windows media content works on it and if it's reasonably priced.

by lubos 14y ago

melling 14y ago

It'll ship on almost 90% of desktop PC's and there are millions of ageing PC's running XP that have to be near the end of their useful life. In short, how big of a flop could it be?

9999 14y ago
The potential for a big flop is that instead of buying a PC to replace that aging XP box, the customer will just buy an iPad.
- Splines 14y ago
  "Hey, look, there's a Windows iPad too. I liked my Windows computer before it just wouldn't turn on anymore, I should try one of those."
- rosstafarian 14y ago
  heh funny you say that, I do some residential work on the side and lately every time i tell a customer it's time for a new laptop, a good 90% ask "what about an ipad?"
- commandar 14y ago
  Bingo. I think this could be a huge threat to Microsoft in enterprise use. What happens when ISVs decide to just target web apps rather than rewrite to Windows Runtime?
- blvr 14y ago
  People are moving to smart phones and tablets anyway. Not because Windows has changed too much, just because they're easier and more convenient.And that's why we have Metro: if Microsoft doesn't follow their customers they're going to lose them.

flyt 14y ago

This OS might be the biggest Apple flop ever. There are just way too many fundamental changes which are not proven to be actually better. I would rather see new iOS touch UI as another full-screen app to see if it can stand on its own before they go all-in with it. Something similar to what Apple did with Classic which was basically another pre-OS X program. I guess, Apple is being run by different folks today.

pvidler 14y ago
The difference is that Windows 8 is an upgrade that will replace older versions entirely. Apple's users who didn't like iOS could stick with Mac OS X, but getting back to old-style Windows from Metro looks tricky (if it can be fully achieved at all). The Classic to OS X transition is a much closer match, except that Apple didn't really attempt to change the way you interacted with the computer at that time (it was/is still basically a WIMP interface). That's not to say that Microsoft will fail, or that Metro will be worse than the Windows 7 GUI. It's certainly going to be more interesting than the average OS launch, but my gut feeling is that the reaction to this will match the reaction to the Office ribbon.
anextio 14y ago
Apple made the bet that there's a fundamental difference between the mobile experience and the desktop experience. They didn't replace OS X with iOS, they each exist as expressions of a different type of computing, for different purposes. Microsoft are attempting to provide one system as a single expression of both types of paradigm, and this is why the jury is out on Windows 8.
- brudgers 14y ago
  >"Apple made the bet that there's a fundamental difference between the mobile experience and the desktop experience." It's a bet they may have gotten wrong from a technical debt standpoint.
  - glhaynes 14y ago
    What do you mean?

billpatrianakos 14y ago

Oh boy, here comes the obligatory HN-contrarianism and knee-jerk Microsoft bashing. I dislike Microsoft, in particular, Windows, as much as the next guy but you can't just throw out blanket statements like that with nothing to support them. Why will this be such a flop? Are you maybe exaggerating? If it is because of the fundamental changes you mention? Which ones in particular and how are they not proven to be better? I'm not defending Windows8 at all. Like I said, I'm no Microsoft fan myself but even I can give them credit for some of the things they're doing in Windows8. I think it'd be far more constructive to give us some specifics so that we can have a real discussion rather than throwing out generalizations that'll turn this into another religious debate.

lubos 14y ago
I'm not bashing Microsoft. Windows is my primary platform, all I'm saying is that I'm disappointed at how radical Microsoft is becoming. 99.9999% of applications for Windows are not going to look like Metro apps including flagship products like MS Office. So Metro is going to get in the way most of the time. I'm not sure what desktop users should really appreciate about Windows 8.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  I'm disappointed at how radical Microsoft is becoming. This makes me laugh. It was not long ago, not long ago at all, everybody was complaining about how old-fashioned and unresponsive Microsoft was being.
  - gaelian 14y ago
    Exactly. I would rather see them err on the side of radicalism at this point. I have primarily been a Mac user for the last couple of years (whenever I have a choice about it), but I'd love to see MS start making its self more relevant again. I feel the consumers (i.e. my) interestes are best served when progress from the tech giants are spurred on by their competition. Not when a single platform has the majority of mind share in terms of perceived innovation.
- 14y ago

jjcm 14y ago

Disagree. It will be the biggest investment in research Microsoft has placed in the mainstream market to date. Windows 8 is effectively a research project. Microsoft wants to know and understand how people will be using different modalities in their everyday work. Windows 8 will have huge issues, no doubt, but Microsoft will learn enormous amounts from it. Metro is a smart move - window chrome is unnecessary, and takes up more space than it should. Moving to a tighter and more relevant UI will prove beneficial in the long run. It will also test out some of the more tablet friendly interfaces, and most importantly Microsoft will learn how and why those fail in the desktop settings (and how to fix that). These are unknowns right now; Microsoft is going all in so they can discover them. That said, Metro dashboard aside, it's a nice OS. If you stay in the desktop mode it's really just a faster and more stable version of windows 7. I've been using it as my primary OS for the last few months. The lack of a start menu will confuse people at first, but the keyboard driven execution of programs should be a welcomed change for many power users. There will certainly be a backlash from users, much like there was from Vista. Down the road though, I can see Windows 9 learning a ton from 8. That's where I see the true value of Windows 8. Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft.

tnash 14y ago
I like your point about the backlash being like Vista, considering that I thought Vista was a fine OS. However, I think that was more of a jump sideways whereas this is more of a jump forwards/backwards. I haven't used it since the dev preview, but I'm looking forward to putting this on one machine and trying it out. I'm hoping for a lot more customization. I don't understand why that's being taken out of every modern operating system. The biggest thing I dislike about Windows Phone is that I can't change the tiles to be non-insane colored. I just want them to be white, dammit! I'm hoping that level of customization is present in Win 8, but I have a sinking feeling that it will not be.
polshaw 14y ago
I believe the windows 8 naysayers will be proved very wrong, people will come to love windows 8, at least on the desktop. Take the start screen.. people are struggling to come to terms with it, but conceptionally it is so much better. Take the current start menu-- what are the usability problems? -- nested folders, stuff like uninstallers squatting there, small mouse target. The new start screen tackles all these issues, whist still keeping the keyboard/search support (what most here have been doing since vista no doubt). Why should the start area not fill the screen? Similarly, there is no point in a little windows logo/button bottom left.

Negitivefrags 14y ago

To call Windows 3.1 "basically another DOS program" is to call Linux "basically another GRUB program".

drcube 14y ago
No, it's more like saying "GNOME is basically another Linux program". Which is true.

brudgers 14y ago

>"There are just way too many fundamental changes which are not proven to be actually better." I suspect that Microsoft has mountains of statistical data to support the statement "Metro is a better user interface." Anecdotally, I'd agree. How that translates into the market is of course another story. And if history is a guide, it will translate slowly just like every other operating system Microsoft has released since...well forever. In four years when Windows 9 rolls out, we'll still be hearing about people running XP (confession: my oldest laptop runs 2000 when I fire it up). It's not a big deal for Microsoft because they don't really make money by breaking old hardware via an OS push on a three year cycle like Apple does. Their big money comes from stable relationships with enterprise with manufacturers and their business model supports supporting legacy systems. BTW, there's no way to top Clippy.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

Stark2 14y ago

What sells this os to me, is that it will be an option to Android and the Ipad. Both of these fail in certain areas related to playing windows media content. A lot of radio stations,and a lot of Windows media content will not work with iOs or Android. But they do work with Windows 7 and hopefully Windows 8. I will ditch my android tablet for a Windows 8 tablet in a heartbeat, if my windows media content works on it and if it's reasonably priced.