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And Finland is a country so there are less regional differences in policymaking. And Finland doesn't have balkanized healthcare systems. And Finland doesn't hav

And Finland is a country so there are less regional differences in policymaking. And Finland doesn't have balkanized healthcare systems. And Finland doesn't have suburban land use that sets a high minimum cost to participating in society. And Finland doesn't have open borders with Republican states which openly advertise that they bus indigent migrants with no work permits to sanctuary cities. Science works best when you have controls that let you measure the consequences of changes precisely. Saying that results from a Nordic social democracy probably don't apply to a city with no administrative capacity and machine politics is not controversial. It's the null hypothesis!

throwaway2037 2y ago
> Finland doesn't have suburban land use that sets a high minimum cost to participating in society. What does this mean?
- shuckles 2y ago
  Practically, to earn income in most parts of America, you need to own a car and pay rent on a single family home. That is a $800-$1000 additional expense versus living in a micro-studio and taking transit to work. For someone on the margins, that is a huge and often insurmountable price of entry. Many can make do by, e.g., being housemates in a larger home to reduce the minimum expense. Folks on the margins are often not able to find others willing to live with them.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    So... Finland, exactly, right? I assume that you already know that Finland is huge but only has a population of ~5.5M. Except for central Helsinki, the entire country is suburban or rural. I'll offer a counterpoint that people rarely consider: Most of the populated land in Japan in rural. Many people who live more than 50km from a major city drive. Almost all people who live 100km from a major city have 2x cars in their home. This shocks many people. Please stop assuming that the US is special or amazing. It has pockets of very dense cities and the rest is mostly suburban or rural... like other highly advanced countries in Europe or East Asia.
    - shuckles 2y ago
      Most people in advanced countries are rich and can choose expensive lifestyles, but that has little to do with the options afforded to those who aren’t.
- patmorgan23 2y ago
  Single Family suburban homes are expensive and require you to buy an expensive car in order to do anything.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    Is this not also true in Finland?
parineum 2y ago
If you're going to take the moral stand against the way border states handle their illegal migrants publicly and derisively while simultaneously declaring yourself as a safe haven for those migrants, you probably shouldn't be surprised when those states call your bluff.
- shuckles 2y ago
  That does not really describe what’s happening. The fix for asylum laws being abused is legislative, and in the last year fixes have been scuttled by Republican legislators. Sanctuary city laws are pretty reasonable policy statements about when a city cooperates in deporting illegal immigrants who may otherwise be law abiding. This makes perfect sense as a policy when you operate in an immigration regime that makes legal immigration infeasible for all kinds of necessary labor, from farm workers to domestic help and even high skilled IT. If Texas wanted to call California’s bluff on housing policy, it would also reject the middle and high income households moving to the Triangle from high housing cost California suburbs. But it’s not principled when it comes to that — their money is welcomed! Heck, even the Florida model where they check if businesses are indeed employing legal workers in labor intensive industries like construction would be a more faithful enactment of law and order values with respect to immigration. Anything short of that is its own form of sheltering.
  - parineum 2y ago
    I'm not really making a policy criticism of any of it really. I'm just saying, if you're going to publicly antagonize someone about they way they do something and imply your way is the enlightened way to score political points, don't be surprised when those people find a way to call your bluff, publicly. Trucking migrants to sancutary cities has changed people's minds.
    - shuckles 2y ago
      No, forcefully moving people around has not changed any minds and > publicly antagonize someone about they way they do something and imply your way is the enlightened way to score political points, don't be surprised when those people find a way to call your bluff Not sure how you frame a political stunt as a moral comeuppance.
ThunderSizzle 2y ago
> Republican states which openly advertise that they bus indigent migrants with no work permits to sanctuary cities. Oh, those stupid Republicans! I can't believe they would ever send illegal immigrants that voluntarily want to go to a sanctuary city that has been proclaiming themselves as a safe harbor for criminals for over a decade, to said sanctuary city! Oh, the horror and atrocity! The only reason the border is wide open is because we don't have sufficient border walls and border enforcement, all of which sanctuary city democrats have opposed and voted against. If your going to go political, you probably should've just pointed to the open border problem, not target Republicans. But it's obvious whose causing an open border right now.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Calavar 2y ago
  > The only reason the border is wide open is because we don't have sufficient border walls and border enforcement, The bottleneck at the border is not physically policing the border, but the fact that migrants have learned to work the legal system by filing asylum requests. So the solution is legal reform, not building more walls. The 2023 border reform bill would have enforced a mandatory cap on the number of asylum requests processed (not just granted, but processed at all). Any migrant asking for asylum after that cap would have been turned away immediately. > But it's obvious whose causing an open border right now. I wouldn't say it's clear at all. It's true that the Democrats have historically turned a blind eye to the border. But over the past 12 months: First the GOP leadership said they wouldn't pass border reform unless it was bundled with Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan funding, then said they wouldn't pass border reform until it was unbundled, then they brought the Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan funding back to the floor but not the unbundled border reform bill. For the first time in a generation, there were enough Democratic votes to pass significant border reform, and the GOP votes simultaneously vanished into thin air.
- nrclark 2y ago
  HN is not the right forum for sports-team red vs blue politics, and that kind of mentality is not good for our nation as a whole. We are all one nation.

throwaway2037 2y ago

> Finland doesn't have suburban land use that sets a high minimum cost to participating in society. What does this mean?

shuckles 2y ago
Practically, to earn income in most parts of America, you need to own a car and pay rent on a single family home. That is a $800-$1000 additional expense versus living in a micro-studio and taking transit to work. For someone on the margins, that is a huge and often insurmountable price of entry. Many can make do by, e.g., being housemates in a larger home to reduce the minimum expense. Folks on the margins are often not able to find others willing to live with them.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  So... Finland, exactly, right? I assume that you already know that Finland is huge but only has a population of ~5.5M. Except for central Helsinki, the entire country is suburban or rural. I'll offer a counterpoint that people rarely consider: Most of the populated land in Japan in rural. Many people who live more than 50km from a major city drive. Almost all people who live 100km from a major city have 2x cars in their home. This shocks many people. Please stop assuming that the US is special or amazing. It has pockets of very dense cities and the rest is mostly suburban or rural... like other highly advanced countries in Europe or East Asia.
  - shuckles 2y ago
    Most people in advanced countries are rich and can choose expensive lifestyles, but that has little to do with the options afforded to those who aren’t.
patmorgan23 2y ago
Single Family suburban homes are expensive and require you to buy an expensive car in order to do anything.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  Is this not also true in Finland?

parineum 2y ago

If you're going to take the moral stand against the way border states handle their illegal migrants publicly and derisively while simultaneously declaring yourself as a safe haven for those migrants, you probably shouldn't be surprised when those states call your bluff.

shuckles 2y ago
That does not really describe what’s happening. The fix for asylum laws being abused is legislative, and in the last year fixes have been scuttled by Republican legislators. Sanctuary city laws are pretty reasonable policy statements about when a city cooperates in deporting illegal immigrants who may otherwise be law abiding. This makes perfect sense as a policy when you operate in an immigration regime that makes legal immigration infeasible for all kinds of necessary labor, from farm workers to domestic help and even high skilled IT. If Texas wanted to call California’s bluff on housing policy, it would also reject the middle and high income households moving to the Triangle from high housing cost California suburbs. But it’s not principled when it comes to that — their money is welcomed! Heck, even the Florida model where they check if businesses are indeed employing legal workers in labor intensive industries like construction would be a more faithful enactment of law and order values with respect to immigration. Anything short of that is its own form of sheltering.
- parineum 2y ago
  I'm not really making a policy criticism of any of it really. I'm just saying, if you're going to publicly antagonize someone about they way they do something and imply your way is the enlightened way to score political points, don't be surprised when those people find a way to call your bluff, publicly. Trucking migrants to sancutary cities has changed people's minds.
  - shuckles 2y ago
    No, forcefully moving people around has not changed any minds and > publicly antagonize someone about they way they do something and imply your way is the enlightened way to score political points, don't be surprised when those people find a way to call your bluff Not sure how you frame a political stunt as a moral comeuppance.

ThunderSizzle 2y ago

> Republican states which openly advertise that they bus indigent migrants with no work permits to sanctuary cities. Oh, those stupid Republicans! I can't believe they would ever send illegal immigrants that voluntarily want to go to a sanctuary city that has been proclaiming themselves as a safe harbor for criminals for over a decade, to said sanctuary city! Oh, the horror and atrocity! The only reason the border is wide open is because we don't have sufficient border walls and border enforcement, all of which sanctuary city democrats have opposed and voted against. If your going to go political, you probably should've just pointed to the open border problem, not target Republicans. But it's obvious whose causing an open border right now.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Calavar 2y ago
> The only reason the border is wide open is because we don't have sufficient border walls and border enforcement, The bottleneck at the border is not physically policing the border, but the fact that migrants have learned to work the legal system by filing asylum requests. So the solution is legal reform, not building more walls. The 2023 border reform bill would have enforced a mandatory cap on the number of asylum requests processed (not just granted, but processed at all). Any migrant asking for asylum after that cap would have been turned away immediately. > But it's obvious whose causing an open border right now. I wouldn't say it's clear at all. It's true that the Democrats have historically turned a blind eye to the border. But over the past 12 months: First the GOP leadership said they wouldn't pass border reform unless it was bundled with Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan funding, then said they wouldn't pass border reform until it was unbundled, then they brought the Ukraine/Israel/Taiwan funding back to the floor but not the unbundled border reform bill. For the first time in a generation, there were enough Democratic votes to pass significant border reform, and the GOP votes simultaneously vanished into thin air.
nrclark 2y ago
HN is not the right forum for sports-team red vs blue politics, and that kind of mentality is not good for our nation as a whole. We are all one nation.