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And yet if they ponied up the money, that issue of "tainting" shared IPs suddenly goes away. You can bet CloudFlare would graciously give the gambling site as

And yet if they ponied up the money, that issue of "tainting" shared IPs suddenly goes away. You can bet CloudFlare would graciously give the gambling site as much time as they need to bring their own IP (they went out of their way to link third party sellers of IPs with dubious provenance, after all).

deleted 2y ago
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hnbad 2y ago
Did you read the blog post? It doesn't include the entire correspondence so it's not clear how explicit Cloudflare was about this but the Enterprise plan they were trying to upsell them includes BYOIP. It's clear to me that Cloudflare insisted they buy the enterprise plan because it includes BYOIP. So in other words, Cloudflare noticed the author was running a gambling site, they decided that this was negatively impacting the shared IPs and the author would therefore need to upgrade to a plan that included BYOIP because they would need to use that feature to continue using Cloudflare and they likely insisted on prepayment for the annual plan because gambling sites have a reputation for being flaky and prepaying would have demonstrated the liquidity necessary to continue operating the site at that plan. Again, Cloudflare could have communicated this better (and maybe they did in parts of the correspondence the author didn't share) but this all seems perfectly understandable, especially given how the sales team kept referencing Trust and Safety (implying the alternative is ending the contract for violating the ToS). The issue of tainting shared IPs would indeed have suddenly gone away had the author brought their own IP (which would have required an Enterprise plan to do while staying on Cloudflare). Instead the author feigns ignorance arguing they don't even need the features of the Enterprise plan and doesn't acknowledge the issue with sharing IPs while sheepishly mentioning that maybe they're accidentally invading bans of their domain in certain countries by having alternative domains which they of course don't actually need because most traffic comes from their main domain yet somehow having these alternative domains is critical to running their business. What are you even trying to argue here? The author is being deliberately dishonest in how they frame the incident and Cloudflare's motivation is perfectly understandable. The only thing to take offense with is the communication style which we can only judge based on a select few messages the author shows us. We have to rely on their word after they have already demonstrated dishonesty.
- NineStarPoint 2y ago
  To me it’s similar to the whole “SSO wall of shame” thing, where a vital feature is locked behind more expensive pricing. As said in the article: “We tried saying that we don't need any number of the 14 features that are included” Which, to me, is the crux of the issue. Is it fair for Cloudflare to say “You are breaking the terms of service if you do not change your set up in this specific way, and also the way you need to chance your setup is locked behind a significantly more expensive pricing.” Being able to bring your own IP does not, to me, seem like something that should require a plan that is orders of magnitude more expensive than the standard. It seems much more to me like something that is more fundamental, and should be included as an option in a lesser version of the product Maybe I’m wrong, and there is actually significant overhead to Cloudflare for letting customers bring an IP. But as is, it feels very much to me like a situation where something vital was locked at the most expensive tier to force certain kinds of customer to pay more.
  - hnbad 2y ago
    I'd say at that point it's essentially compensation for personal suffering. Yes, BYOIP as a feature does not seem complex enough to warrant paying for an Entperise license. But the kind of customers who need BYOIP (especially if they need it to avoid harming your IP reputation) are likely to be at a higher risk of being flaky or otherwise painful so this is very much a tax on running that kind of business (just as porn sites often find it hard to find payment processors because of the high risk of credit card fraud). As a freelancer I have absolutely made offers at 10x my going rate for client I did not want. The idea is that if they really want me to work for them, at least I get reimbursed for the suffering that will entail. This kind of pricing structure is no different.

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hnbad 2y ago

Did you read the blog post? It doesn't include the entire correspondence so it's not clear how explicit Cloudflare was about this but the Enterprise plan they were trying to upsell them includes BYOIP. It's clear to me that Cloudflare insisted they buy the enterprise plan because it includes BYOIP. So in other words, Cloudflare noticed the author was running a gambling site, they decided that this was negatively impacting the shared IPs and the author would therefore need to upgrade to a plan that included BYOIP because they would need to use that feature to continue using Cloudflare and they likely insisted on prepayment for the annual plan because gambling sites have a reputation for being flaky and prepaying would have demonstrated the liquidity necessary to continue operating the site at that plan. Again, Cloudflare could have communicated this better (and maybe they did in parts of the correspondence the author didn't share) but this all seems perfectly understandable, especially given how the sales team kept referencing Trust and Safety (implying the alternative is ending the contract for violating the ToS). The issue of tainting shared IPs would indeed have suddenly gone away had the author brought their own IP (which would have required an Enterprise plan to do while staying on Cloudflare). Instead the author feigns ignorance arguing they don't even need the features of the Enterprise plan and doesn't acknowledge the issue with sharing IPs while sheepishly mentioning that maybe they're accidentally invading bans of their domain in certain countries by having alternative domains which they of course don't actually need because most traffic comes from their main domain yet somehow having these alternative domains is critical to running their business. What are you even trying to argue here? The author is being deliberately dishonest in how they frame the incident and Cloudflare's motivation is perfectly understandable. The only thing to take offense with is the communication style which we can only judge based on a select few messages the author shows us. We have to rely on their word after they have already demonstrated dishonesty.

NineStarPoint 2y ago
To me it’s similar to the whole “SSO wall of shame” thing, where a vital feature is locked behind more expensive pricing. As said in the article: “We tried saying that we don't need any number of the 14 features that are included” Which, to me, is the crux of the issue. Is it fair for Cloudflare to say “You are breaking the terms of service if you do not change your set up in this specific way, and also the way you need to chance your setup is locked behind a significantly more expensive pricing.” Being able to bring your own IP does not, to me, seem like something that should require a plan that is orders of magnitude more expensive than the standard. It seems much more to me like something that is more fundamental, and should be included as an option in a lesser version of the product Maybe I’m wrong, and there is actually significant overhead to Cloudflare for letting customers bring an IP. But as is, it feels very much to me like a situation where something vital was locked at the most expensive tier to force certain kinds of customer to pay more.
- hnbad 2y ago
  I'd say at that point it's essentially compensation for personal suffering. Yes, BYOIP as a feature does not seem complex enough to warrant paying for an Entperise license. But the kind of customers who need BYOIP (especially if they need it to avoid harming your IP reputation) are likely to be at a higher risk of being flaky or otherwise painful so this is very much a tax on running that kind of business (just as porn sites often find it hard to find payment processors because of the high risk of credit card fraud). As a freelancer I have absolutely made offers at 10x my going rate for client I did not want. The idea is that if they really want me to work for them, at least I get reimbursed for the suffering that will entail. This kind of pricing structure is no different.