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I’ll keep shouting this from the rooftops: while it may contribute in some areas, zoning laws are not the primary cause of home prices increasing like they have

I’ll keep shouting this from the rooftops: while it may contribute in some areas, zoning laws are not the primary cause of home prices increasing like they have. For proof, look at any rural (and I mean actual rural) area and how their home prices have also been skyrocketing. It’s supply and demand, with other things being small factors. We either need to vastly increase supply across the entire country somehow, or cut down on demand. The latter is a hell of a lot easier than the former. For some reason it’s ok to talk about this in the context of Canada and how their mass immigration has increased home prices, but that applies to almost everywhere. Japan literally has homes they’re trying to give away.

masterj 2y ago
> zoning laws are not the primary cause of home prices > We ... need to vastly increase supply across the entire country somehow Zoning laws reduce available supply by making it illegal or impossible (due to e.g. parking minimums) to build densely in most of the bigger cities in North America > For some reason it’s ok to talk about this in the context of Canada and how their mass immigration has increased home prices 1. It's not okay to scapegoat immigrants 2. Canada hasn't built enough housing to keep up with a growing population, largely due to exclusionary zoning policies. The vast majority of land in Vancouver is reserved for SFHs, even within walksheds of skytrain stations representing billions of dollars in Provincial investment.
- Auracle 2y ago
  I know it’s hard for people that live in cities, but you all can’t see the forest for the trees. Even when talking about Canada’s issue you say they haven’t been able to make enough housing…in cities. First off, they can’t make enough housing anywhere. There are only so many home builders, and at least in the US up until the last year they’ve all been absolutely swamped. It takes time for more people to learn trades. When housing is cheap enough outside of cities people move there instead. We see it happen all the time, and it’d happen even more if rural home prices also weren’t going up like they have been - especially now that working from home is here to stay for plenty of companies.
WheatMillington 2y ago
Supply and Demand is a function of zoning, because more supply cannot happen without the correct zoning happening.
- Auracle 2y ago
  I wish you could go outside my house right now and look around. Guess what - there’s basically no zoning here. There’s land. If I wanted to put up a 30 story apartment building I could, though I suppose what few neighbors I have might make a stink about it, and it probably wouldn’t make sense when everyone here lives on at least 5 acres. Yet - somehow, amazingly, prices are still going up. We have a severe supply/demand mismatch in the country that drives prices up across the board.
lwansbrough 2y ago
> For proof, look at any rural area and how their home prices have also been skyrocketing. Yes, it is supply and demand. And zoning is the largest component of the supply function. If you fix zoning, you fix supply, approximately. Outdated fire code, etc. are also important factors. > or cut down on demand This is called degrowth and it's how you destroy an economy. > Japan literally has homes they’re trying to give away. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by invoking Japan -- Japan notoriously solved their housing crisis by abolishing the regressive zoning practices at the time and made basically everything one big mixed use zone. The reason why Japan is giving away houses these days is because everyone moved to the cities because that's where the economic opportunity is. And that's where people who contribute to the economy want to be -- where the economic opportunity is.
- Auracle 2y ago
  Zoning is only the largest component of the supply function in major cities. My point is that I could build as much freaking housing as I wanted where I live, of whatever type I wanted. Our local population numbers are relatively stable. Yet prices have still been surging. Why? I said cut down in demand, not go into full depopulation. That said, at some point we’re going to need to deal with that. We can’t just keep on importing people from the third world forever to offset people making less babies. Just aim for, say - an increase of population of 1% a year. Right now it’s completely uncontrolled and people are somehow shocked that housing prices are out of control. Even in Tokyo home prices aren’t bad, and that’s with their culture of tearing down and rebuilding every 30 years. My real point though was that the same is true here - most economic opportunities are in cities. Yet our rural housing isn’t getting cheaper, and it’s increasing in cost almost as much as (most) urban centers.

masterj 2y ago

> zoning laws are not the primary cause of home prices > We ... need to vastly increase supply across the entire country somehow Zoning laws reduce available supply by making it illegal or impossible (due to e.g. parking minimums) to build densely in most of the bigger cities in North America > For some reason it’s ok to talk about this in the context of Canada and how their mass immigration has increased home prices 1. It's not okay to scapegoat immigrants 2. Canada hasn't built enough housing to keep up with a growing population, largely due to exclusionary zoning policies. The vast majority of land in Vancouver is reserved for SFHs, even within walksheds of skytrain stations representing billions of dollars in Provincial investment.

Auracle 2y ago
I know it’s hard for people that live in cities, but you all can’t see the forest for the trees. Even when talking about Canada’s issue you say they haven’t been able to make enough housing…in cities. First off, they can’t make enough housing anywhere. There are only so many home builders, and at least in the US up until the last year they’ve all been absolutely swamped. It takes time for more people to learn trades. When housing is cheap enough outside of cities people move there instead. We see it happen all the time, and it’d happen even more if rural home prices also weren’t going up like they have been - especially now that working from home is here to stay for plenty of companies.

WheatMillington 2y ago

Supply and Demand is a function of zoning, because more supply cannot happen without the correct zoning happening.

Auracle 2y ago
I wish you could go outside my house right now and look around. Guess what - there’s basically no zoning here. There’s land. If I wanted to put up a 30 story apartment building I could, though I suppose what few neighbors I have might make a stink about it, and it probably wouldn’t make sense when everyone here lives on at least 5 acres. Yet - somehow, amazingly, prices are still going up. We have a severe supply/demand mismatch in the country that drives prices up across the board.

lwansbrough 2y ago

> For proof, look at any rural area and how their home prices have also been skyrocketing. Yes, it is supply and demand. And zoning is the largest component of the supply function. If you fix zoning, you fix supply, approximately. Outdated fire code, etc. are also important factors. > or cut down on demand This is called degrowth and it's how you destroy an economy. > Japan literally has homes they’re trying to give away. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by invoking Japan -- Japan notoriously solved their housing crisis by abolishing the regressive zoning practices at the time and made basically everything one big mixed use zone. The reason why Japan is giving away houses these days is because everyone moved to the cities because that's where the economic opportunity is. And that's where people who contribute to the economy want to be -- where the economic opportunity is.

Auracle 2y ago
Zoning is only the largest component of the supply function in major cities. My point is that I could build as much freaking housing as I wanted where I live, of whatever type I wanted. Our local population numbers are relatively stable. Yet prices have still been surging. Why? I said cut down in demand, not go into full depopulation. That said, at some point we’re going to need to deal with that. We can’t just keep on importing people from the third world forever to offset people making less babies. Just aim for, say - an increase of population of 1% a year. Right now it’s completely uncontrolled and people are somehow shocked that housing prices are out of control. Even in Tokyo home prices aren’t bad, and that’s with their culture of tearing down and rebuilding every 30 years. My real point though was that the same is true here - most economic opportunities are in cities. Yet our rural housing isn’t getting cheaper, and it’s increasing in cost almost as much as (most) urban centers.