13 ms·

Same excuse every museum gives. The US is full of European art and artifacts.

alephnerd 2y ago
American museums also seem to have a stronger financial muscle [0] as they tend to be overwhelmingly funded by self sustaining endowments and more open to monetization strategies like IP Licensing (eg. MoMA+Uniqlo's partnership) [0] - https://www.sothebysinstitute.com/news-and-events/news/the-business-model-of-the-nonprofit-museum https://www.sothebysinstitute.com/news-and-events/news/the-b...
bossyTeacher 2y ago
The US is a former British colony so it makes sense for it have british artifacts
- twixfel 2y ago
  European, not just British.
  - bossyTeacher 2y ago
    Brits had all sorts of European forces on their lands and each brought cultural artifacts with them
aprilthird2021 2y ago
There's a difference between museums and galleries where pieces were purchased and have a good chain of ownership and pieces where the museum knows one of the owners in the chain looted the piece
throw5345346 2y ago
Small beer when it's also built in very large part on stolen land, eh? If giving stuff back is important (and I think it is), I'd love it if the knee-jerk thinkers of HN would start by looking at where they live and which tribe it was stolen from by force and murder.
- tasuki 2y ago
  Sure, but which land isn't stolen?
  - twixfel 2y ago
    Well, the USA was completely stolen, every single square inch, and the natives genocided. Whereas the Basques for example, if they stole their land, did it in deep prehistory.
    - MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
      The natives weren’t one political group of people. They were hundred or thousands of tribes. And at some point each tribe “stole” it from some other tribe and territory. Some tribes (example: the Iroquois) were genociding other tribes.
      - throw5345346 2y ago
        You know this is the same form of justification that used to be used for squirrelling things away in western museums?
        MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
        Yes.
  - throw5345346 2y ago
    In many cases, the USA knows the names and families of the people it stole land from. Knows their lineage. Even has photographs of some of them! In historical terms it is a recent, deliberate, judicially-supported, documented theft. Not some undocumented invasion in hazy pre-history. Acts of Congress were passed to do it. The British Museum (along with the V&A) has some stuff (well looked-after) that people want back. Currently the law literally prevents it being returned, and these organisations are in many cases trying to find ways to work around that law so that it is long-loaned back forever, until the law is changed. There's no simple intransigence; there is dialogue and politics. The British Empire did some amazing things, and many, many ugly things. You won't find a person in the UK who doesn't understand that now, and there are all sorts of reparation campaigns, restitution campaigns, history projects, etc. etc.; nationally we rub our own noses in it so often that there's a right-wing backlash. So it's tedious in the extreme the way Americans keep prattling on about British museums as if there is only stonewalling, and as if there is no appropriation from native culture in its post-independence history. It's literally on paper.

American museums also seem to have a stronger financial muscle [0] as they tend to be overwhelmingly funded by self sustaining endowments and more open to monetization strategies like IP Licensing (eg. MoMA+Uniqlo's partnership) [0] - https://www.sothebysinstitute.com/news-and-events/news/the-business-model-of-the-nonprofit-museum https://www.sothebysinstitute.com/news-and-events/news/the-b...

bossyTeacher 2y ago

The US is a former British colony so it makes sense for it have british artifacts

twixfel 2y ago
European, not just British.
- bossyTeacher 2y ago
  Brits had all sorts of European forces on their lands and each brought cultural artifacts with them

aprilthird2021 2y ago

There's a difference between museums and galleries where pieces were purchased and have a good chain of ownership and pieces where the museum knows one of the owners in the chain looted the piece

throw5345346 2y ago

Small beer when it's also built in very large part on stolen land, eh? If giving stuff back is important (and I think it is), I'd love it if the knee-jerk thinkers of HN would start by looking at where they live and which tribe it was stolen from by force and murder.

tasuki 2y ago
Sure, but which land isn't stolen?
- twixfel 2y ago
  Well, the USA was completely stolen, every single square inch, and the natives genocided. Whereas the Basques for example, if they stole their land, did it in deep prehistory.
  - MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
    The natives weren’t one political group of people. They were hundred or thousands of tribes. And at some point each tribe “stole” it from some other tribe and territory. Some tribes (example: the Iroquois) were genociding other tribes.
    - throw5345346 2y ago
      You know this is the same form of justification that used to be used for squirrelling things away in western museums?
      - MaxHoppersGhost 2y ago
        Yes.
- throw5345346 2y ago
  In many cases, the USA knows the names and families of the people it stole land from. Knows their lineage. Even has photographs of some of them! In historical terms it is a recent, deliberate, judicially-supported, documented theft. Not some undocumented invasion in hazy pre-history. Acts of Congress were passed to do it. The British Museum (along with the V&A) has some stuff (well looked-after) that people want back. Currently the law literally prevents it being returned, and these organisations are in many cases trying to find ways to work around that law so that it is long-loaned back forever, until the law is changed. There's no simple intransigence; there is dialogue and politics. The British Empire did some amazing things, and many, many ugly things. You won't find a person in the UK who doesn't understand that now, and there are all sorts of reparation campaigns, restitution campaigns, history projects, etc. etc.; nationally we rub our own noses in it so often that there's a right-wing backlash. So it's tedious in the extreme the way Americans keep prattling on about British museums as if there is only stonewalling, and as if there is no appropriation from native culture in its post-independence history. It's literally on paper.