7 ms·

What a delightfully simple solution! I have to imagine if I were given this problem I would muck it all up with wristbands assigned to seats and a 5G/IOT networ

What a delightfully simple solution! I have to imagine if I were given this problem I would muck it all up with wristbands assigned to seats and a 5G/IOT network needing to be installed at every stadium and custom control logic needing to be written and customized for every stadium… Whereas they just hook up an IR lamp and use the exact same lighting control procedures every stage tech knows blindfolded. Brilliant!

stavros 2y ago
I had the same reaction, this is a really hard problem, unless you solve it the way they did. Ingenious.
Waterluvian 2y ago
I also appreciate when designers recognize “this is the kind of thing where a 95% hit rate is fine.”
- preinheimer 2y ago
  I think there’s also the whole “the people with the wrist bands -want- them to work” part. Which is super helpful. Yes, you could hide your band under your hand, now it’s not glowing like everyone else’s… congrats you feel left out.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  And it isn't secure, but, it doesn't have to be. In theory someone can bring a high strength IR beamer thingy to an arena and draw penises or offensive texts on people's bracelets, but that's a manageable risk. Protecting against that would make the devices much more expensive. I mean the components in this one are a few bucks at most, right?
  - xg15 2y ago
    Yeah. My first thought was "have fun smuggling any kind of bulky electrical equipment into a Taylor Swift concert, let alone a stage light. Security will not even be mad." But on second thought, I think there might be an actual scenario to worry about: Activists hijacking the system to show political messages. For that they'd "only" have to beam the IR to a small spot of the room (but with much higher "resolution" than the normal effects). As long as the symbol/text/whatever is still legible enough that people recognize it and can take pictures of it, they'd have achieved their objective. Something like this might be possible with a much weaker, purpose-built emitter that could be hidden under clothing. Too much risk and effort for some dumb dick joke, but thinkable if people have some kind of political motivation. As a "bonus", the first blame would probably fall on the unfortunate people whose wristbands lighted up with the message, while the real perpetrators - the ones with the emitter - remained hidden. There is an easy fix as well though: As the system "paints" with digital signals and not light, the old lighting rule that colors mix only additively doesn't hold anymore - so you could add a "don't light up for the next 10 seconds" command to the wristbands and just have the stage beam that command continously whenever no effect is wanted.
    - antris 2y ago
      > But on second thought, I think there might be an actual scenario to worry about: Activists hijacking the system to show political messages. Oh, the horror
      - gunsle 2y ago
        People are paying their own money to see these shows, protesting by ruining that experience is just going to piss people off and hurt your cause.
        pests 2y ago
        They must feel the pain for them to care.
        HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
        And probably get your ass kicked if they can tell it's you doing it.
      - Waterluvian 2y ago
        There's something ironic about activists behaving like they somehow have the right to just be in people's way. As if the ends justify the means.
        ada1981 2y ago
        Rosa Parks, Henry David Thoreau and MLK disagree.
        freedomben 2y ago
        Seriously asking: did those three go around to existing events and hijack them? e.g. Did they jump on stage and grab the microphones, or did they block traffic so nobody could get through? Or did they threaten people with violence for passing through having contrary opinions? My understanding after reading "King" by Jonathan Eig (a fantastic biography btw, highly recommend to everyone) is that they didn't do that kind of stuff. They marched alongside traffic and were so non-violent that they allowed themselves to be hit with dogs and high-pressure water hoses without responding. Rosa Parks especially was not like most "activists" today. She clamly and peacefully kept her seat on the bus. Maybe the former Google employee activists who refused to leave the conference room would be similar here, though there are of course differences. I consider myself an activist, and I believe strongly that people need to help raise awareness because there is far too much ignorance and apathy out there, but I agree with GP and siblings that many of the activists today are harming their own cause by being obnoxious. Raising awareness in an empathetic way is the right way to do it, not trying to bully people into agreeing.
epmatsw 2y ago
I spent an honestly embarrassing amount of time at the first show I went to trying to figure out how they'd managed it.
- grogenaut 2y ago
  At the first show I was at that had them, The International 5 in Seattle, I figured out they were IR very quickly by putting one in my backpack and seeing it didn't react when all the others did but did react as soon as I pulled it out (cloth backpack). I then prime now'd a univeral remote to the arena. I had arena wifi for my work but I was in the stands. That didn't work (didn't pick up a signal). So that night I diassembled it and verfied it was basically a moulded wristband, micro, ir, leds, battery and connectors. so I next day'd an IR Toy to the arena. I was able to read a signal but couldn't reproduce it. It was kinda hard to live code during the event and my batteries kept dying. I tried again the next year but got bored after that. It was annoying to have the setup at the ready when they flashed the lights especially as that was usually during the biggest moments of action. So I just sat back and enjoyed the show.
  - hencq 2y ago
    I initially read over what show this was, so I was picturing you live coding this during a Taylor Swift concert.
    - grogenaut 2y ago
      They wouldn't let me bring in a laptop to eras sadly. And they're crimping my style at baseball games as well.
      - freedomben 2y ago
        More evidence that we're losing our rights to general purpose computing! (joking of course as that's not what is happening here. I am truly highly concerned about the loss of general purpose computing, but I also love poking fun at myself and group)
CPLX 2y ago
If you watch the video at the top of the article it looks like they actually have a couple options. Infared is one, but there's also bluetooth and RF control as well, and there's video of a feature where people are entering their seat information to participate.
amluto 2y ago
To be clear, this is a 38kHz modulated IR system, and it’s not likely to work like a DMX light. 38kHz IR is an extremely mature technology. The transmit and receive sides are made in huge volumes, complete with integrated modulators and demodulators. There’s a receiver in basically every piece of consumer A/V equipment and a transmitter in almost every remote control. You used to be able to buy them at Radio Shack!
- krisoft 2y ago
  > it’s not likely to work like a DMX light That is not what the manufacturer says: “Our wash works with a standard professional lighting rigging yoke and DMX 512.” [1] Wash is the name they use for the lamp which sends the controlling signal. 1: https://pixmob.com/our-effects https://pixmob.com/our-effects
  - amluto 2y ago
    Huh, I guess they are sweeping their IR transmitter around just like a visible light. I suppose one could map all the effects one intends to use onto DMX channels. I imagine that actual selection of those effects is done out of band.
    - numpad0 2y ago
      The intention is likely that the transmitter takes DMX and sends out 38kHz IR, and the whole system of searchlight and individual armbands collectively becomes a DMX lighting. The optical wireless link part is an internal implementation detail.
      - Salgat 2y ago
        I think the key thing is that IR allows the bands to work regardless of where the wristbands are located in the stadium. Additionally, they're probably using the IR to multiplex since the DMX 512 standard technically only supports 512 channels (which if each device uses a channel for color and channel for intensity, is only 256 supported devices).
xyst 2y ago
> I would muck it all up with wristbands assigned to seats and a 5G/IOT network needing to be installed at every stadium and custom control logic needing to be written and customized for every stadium complex, expensive, difficult to deploy, doesn’t account for all factors (highly congested cellular networks are common in medium to high dense areas). Reminds me of a few consultants I have had the “pleasure” to work with.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  The attributes you list are correct, but you’re being a little unfair with your pretty obvious implications of at the very least incompetence of not malice. People get used to building with the tools in their tool belt. When a problem arises that is better served with another tool, especially when working at a “lower level”, even if it’s more simple overall which this clearly clearly is, many many people are blind to it. I guarantee that you’ve done the same thing at least once.
- mmahemoff 2y ago
  Goes to show it's not always about greed or malice. Sometimes overengineering is at least well-intentioned. (Following the money often helps you determine what caused it.)
  - dec0dedab0de 2y ago
    I think over engineering comes from engineers catching shit from customers and managers that changed requirements after the fact. Then on their next project those engineers get paranoid, and try to solve every problem before it happens.
- JadeNB 2y ago
  I think this is a highly uncharitable response to someone clearly trying to speak humbly and honestly of their instinct towards a solution they obviously then recognized would be inappropriate.
- spoonjim 2y ago
  If you would have invented PixMob, why didn’t you invent PixMob?
w0z_ 2y ago
"wristbands assigned to seats and a 5G/IOT" Not sure what a "5G/IOT network" is, nor what vaporware claims "wristbands assigned to seats".
- zik 2y ago
  Redcap [1], CAT-M1 [2] and NB-IoT [3] are 5G IOT technologies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR#NR-Light_/_RedCap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR#NR-Light_/_RedCap [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE-M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE-M [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowband_IoT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowband_IoT
aeternum 2y ago
This works great until someone comes to the show with flashlight augmented with a simple chip to send the right frequency and does his/her own crowd painting :D
- krisoft 2y ago
  Yeah the company making the bands also makes that flashlight: https://pixmob.com/stories/pixmob-portable-transmitter https://pixmob.com/stories/pixmob-portable-transmitter They call it a portable transmitter.
  - ada1981 2y ago
    Can we buy one? I could see a venue renting these to people for the night. They could outfit them with a kill switch remotely if people abuse it. Or have them tethered in the VIP areas.
- deadbunny 2y ago
  Good luck getting that past security...
  - ckdarby 2y ago
    Design it into a walking stick for someone with impaired vision.
    - hvs 2y ago
      That's a lot of work to get kicked out of a concert that you paid hundreds of dollars for.
Taniwha 2y ago
I built this: http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/dev_playa1.png http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/dev_playa1.png 10+ years ago = it uses a CC2533 RF/CPU zigbee core and forms a mesh net (it does SUOTA that way too) - we designed it for Burning Man but never swung the funding for tens of thousands of them You can find more here: http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/ http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/
topherjaynes 2y ago
I was at the Tampa concert last year, and I was so distracted by trying to figure out how they controlled the wristbands. They were randomly handed out at the door, and I had no idea what seat I was in. I went through the scenario to flash sectors to see where they were located and build a grid, but when I got home, I was floored at the IR solution. It was so simple.
arytoriop 2y ago
Yup, I love how simple the tech is at it's core. I would totally also overcomplicate it.

stavros 2y ago

I had the same reaction, this is a really hard problem, unless you solve it the way they did. Ingenious.

Waterluvian 2y ago

I also appreciate when designers recognize “this is the kind of thing where a 95% hit rate is fine.”

preinheimer 2y ago
I think there’s also the whole “the people with the wrist bands -want- them to work” part. Which is super helpful. Yes, you could hide your band under your hand, now it’s not glowing like everyone else’s… congrats you feel left out.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
And it isn't secure, but, it doesn't have to be. In theory someone can bring a high strength IR beamer thingy to an arena and draw penises or offensive texts on people's bracelets, but that's a manageable risk. Protecting against that would make the devices much more expensive. I mean the components in this one are a few bucks at most, right?
- xg15 2y ago
  Yeah. My first thought was "have fun smuggling any kind of bulky electrical equipment into a Taylor Swift concert, let alone a stage light. Security will not even be mad." But on second thought, I think there might be an actual scenario to worry about: Activists hijacking the system to show political messages. For that they'd "only" have to beam the IR to a small spot of the room (but with much higher "resolution" than the normal effects). As long as the symbol/text/whatever is still legible enough that people recognize it and can take pictures of it, they'd have achieved their objective. Something like this might be possible with a much weaker, purpose-built emitter that could be hidden under clothing. Too much risk and effort for some dumb dick joke, but thinkable if people have some kind of political motivation. As a "bonus", the first blame would probably fall on the unfortunate people whose wristbands lighted up with the message, while the real perpetrators - the ones with the emitter - remained hidden. There is an easy fix as well though: As the system "paints" with digital signals and not light, the old lighting rule that colors mix only additively doesn't hold anymore - so you could add a "don't light up for the next 10 seconds" command to the wristbands and just have the stage beam that command continously whenever no effect is wanted.
  - antris 2y ago
    > But on second thought, I think there might be an actual scenario to worry about: Activists hijacking the system to show political messages. Oh, the horror
    - gunsle 2y ago
      People are paying their own money to see these shows, protesting by ruining that experience is just going to piss people off and hurt your cause.
      - pests 2y ago
        They must feel the pain for them to care.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
        And probably get your ass kicked if they can tell it's you doing it.
    - Waterluvian 2y ago
      There's something ironic about activists behaving like they somehow have the right to just be in people's way. As if the ends justify the means.
      - ada1981 2y ago
        Rosa Parks, Henry David Thoreau and MLK disagree.
        freedomben 2y ago
        Seriously asking: did those three go around to existing events and hijack them? e.g. Did they jump on stage and grab the microphones, or did they block traffic so nobody could get through? Or did they threaten people with violence for passing through having contrary opinions? My understanding after reading "King" by Jonathan Eig (a fantastic biography btw, highly recommend to everyone) is that they didn't do that kind of stuff. They marched alongside traffic and were so non-violent that they allowed themselves to be hit with dogs and high-pressure water hoses without responding. Rosa Parks especially was not like most "activists" today. She clamly and peacefully kept her seat on the bus. Maybe the former Google employee activists who refused to leave the conference room would be similar here, though there are of course differences. I consider myself an activist, and I believe strongly that people need to help raise awareness because there is far too much ignorance and apathy out there, but I agree with GP and siblings that many of the activists today are harming their own cause by being obnoxious. Raising awareness in an empathetic way is the right way to do it, not trying to bully people into agreeing.

epmatsw 2y ago

I spent an honestly embarrassing amount of time at the first show I went to trying to figure out how they'd managed it.

grogenaut 2y ago
At the first show I was at that had them, The International 5 in Seattle, I figured out they were IR very quickly by putting one in my backpack and seeing it didn't react when all the others did but did react as soon as I pulled it out (cloth backpack). I then prime now'd a univeral remote to the arena. I had arena wifi for my work but I was in the stands. That didn't work (didn't pick up a signal). So that night I diassembled it and verfied it was basically a moulded wristband, micro, ir, leds, battery and connectors. so I next day'd an IR Toy to the arena. I was able to read a signal but couldn't reproduce it. It was kinda hard to live code during the event and my batteries kept dying. I tried again the next year but got bored after that. It was annoying to have the setup at the ready when they flashed the lights especially as that was usually during the biggest moments of action. So I just sat back and enjoyed the show.
- hencq 2y ago
  I initially read over what show this was, so I was picturing you live coding this during a Taylor Swift concert.
  - grogenaut 2y ago
    They wouldn't let me bring in a laptop to eras sadly. And they're crimping my style at baseball games as well.
    - freedomben 2y ago
      More evidence that we're losing our rights to general purpose computing! (joking of course as that's not what is happening here. I am truly highly concerned about the loss of general purpose computing, but I also love poking fun at myself and group)

CPLX 2y ago

If you watch the video at the top of the article it looks like they actually have a couple options. Infared is one, but there's also bluetooth and RF control as well, and there's video of a feature where people are entering their seat information to participate.

amluto 2y ago

To be clear, this is a 38kHz modulated IR system, and it’s not likely to work like a DMX light. 38kHz IR is an extremely mature technology. The transmit and receive sides are made in huge volumes, complete with integrated modulators and demodulators. There’s a receiver in basically every piece of consumer A/V equipment and a transmitter in almost every remote control. You used to be able to buy them at Radio Shack!

krisoft 2y ago
> it’s not likely to work like a DMX light That is not what the manufacturer says: “Our wash works with a standard professional lighting rigging yoke and DMX 512.” [1] Wash is the name they use for the lamp which sends the controlling signal. 1: https://pixmob.com/our-effects https://pixmob.com/our-effects
- amluto 2y ago
  Huh, I guess they are sweeping their IR transmitter around just like a visible light. I suppose one could map all the effects one intends to use onto DMX channels. I imagine that actual selection of those effects is done out of band.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    The intention is likely that the transmitter takes DMX and sends out 38kHz IR, and the whole system of searchlight and individual armbands collectively becomes a DMX lighting. The optical wireless link part is an internal implementation detail.
    - Salgat 2y ago
      I think the key thing is that IR allows the bands to work regardless of where the wristbands are located in the stadium. Additionally, they're probably using the IR to multiplex since the DMX 512 standard technically only supports 512 channels (which if each device uses a channel for color and channel for intensity, is only 256 supported devices).

xyst 2y ago

> I would muck it all up with wristbands assigned to seats and a 5G/IOT network needing to be installed at every stadium and custom control logic needing to be written and customized for every stadium complex, expensive, difficult to deploy, doesn’t account for all factors (highly congested cellular networks are common in medium to high dense areas). Reminds me of a few consultants I have had the “pleasure” to work with.

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
The attributes you list are correct, but you’re being a little unfair with your pretty obvious implications of at the very least incompetence of not malice. People get used to building with the tools in their tool belt. When a problem arises that is better served with another tool, especially when working at a “lower level”, even if it’s more simple overall which this clearly clearly is, many many people are blind to it. I guarantee that you’ve done the same thing at least once.
mmahemoff 2y ago
Goes to show it's not always about greed or malice. Sometimes overengineering is at least well-intentioned. (Following the money often helps you determine what caused it.)
- dec0dedab0de 2y ago
  I think over engineering comes from engineers catching shit from customers and managers that changed requirements after the fact. Then on their next project those engineers get paranoid, and try to solve every problem before it happens.
JadeNB 2y ago
I think this is a highly uncharitable response to someone clearly trying to speak humbly and honestly of their instinct towards a solution they obviously then recognized would be inappropriate.
spoonjim 2y ago
If you would have invented PixMob, why didn’t you invent PixMob?

w0z_ 2y ago

"wristbands assigned to seats and a 5G/IOT" Not sure what a "5G/IOT network" is, nor what vaporware claims "wristbands assigned to seats".

zik 2y ago
Redcap [1], CAT-M1 [2] and NB-IoT [3] are 5G IOT technologies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR#NR-Light_/_RedCap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR#NR-Light_/_RedCap [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE-M https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE-M [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowband_IoT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowband_IoT

aeternum 2y ago

This works great until someone comes to the show with flashlight augmented with a simple chip to send the right frequency and does his/her own crowd painting :D

krisoft 2y ago
Yeah the company making the bands also makes that flashlight: https://pixmob.com/stories/pixmob-portable-transmitter https://pixmob.com/stories/pixmob-portable-transmitter They call it a portable transmitter.
- ada1981 2y ago
  Can we buy one? I could see a venue renting these to people for the night. They could outfit them with a kill switch remotely if people abuse it. Or have them tethered in the VIP areas.
deadbunny 2y ago
Good luck getting that past security...
- ckdarby 2y ago
  Design it into a walking stick for someone with impaired vision.
  - hvs 2y ago
    That's a lot of work to get kicked out of a concert that you paid hundreds of dollars for.

Taniwha 2y ago

I built this: http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/dev_playa1.png http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/dev_playa1.png 10+ years ago = it uses a CC2533 RF/CPU zigbee core and forms a mesh net (it does SUOTA that way too) - we designed it for Burning Man but never swung the funding for tens of thousands of them You can find more here: http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/ http://www.moonbaseotago.com/cheaprf/

topherjaynes 2y ago

I was at the Tampa concert last year, and I was so distracted by trying to figure out how they controlled the wristbands. They were randomly handed out at the door, and I had no idea what seat I was in. I went through the scenario to flash sectors to see where they were located and build a grid, but when I got home, I was floored at the IR solution. It was so simple.

arytoriop 2y ago

Yup, I love how simple the tech is at it's core. I would totally also overcomplicate it.