3 ms·

They're filling a god shaped hole in their heart. They like most (all?) people don't understand the world or their role in it, or even worse they know they hav

by Teever 2y ago

They're filling a god shaped hole in their heart. They like most (all?) people don't understand the world or their role in it, or even worse they know they have no role in this world so they reach for what ever can give them fulfilment, belonging and direction, just like religious people do. I agree that it's no way to live.

idontknowifican 2y ago
it always felt a bit more reactionary to me. a lot of people feel like they were unjustly treated, and the label helps them feel better about that stuff. normally i have seen an adult with a fresh diagnosis go really hard in to that identity, only to realize they over did it and land in a more neutral space. as someone who has a bunch of adult friends getting autism or add/adhd diagnosed, there is an immediate phase of “all of my problems are caused by this”, followed by “how do i cope with this”, and finally “this is just helpful context for me”. there are quite a few that get stuck on one of those phases, but largely most people loop back around to a more reasonable view.
pxc 2y ago
> god-shaped hole This cliche phrase definitely takes me back! The problem here is of course that gods aren't capable of solving this kind of problem anyway; an external, instrumental purpose ('God made me to do X', or 'God created me to have Y effect on the world') isn't meaningful in the way people want intrinsic or subjective purposes to be anyway. In that sense religious institutions provide the same kind of earthly, banal, limited meaning that hackerspaces or secular charities or sports clubs or families do. But they're not any better at making existentialist yearnings well-formed than anything else is. I also don't think all that is necessary to explain the phenomenon at hand. That account is way too broad. Imo the drive here is more narrative; it's about making the stories of our lives make sense— often in the simple sense of making them unsurprising. Discovering a diagnosis can be very cathartic, and can (partially) explain lots of patterns and events from one's past. It also brings some relief because it tells us that we are not uniquely defective in our failings and points us towards examples of others who have managed to succeed or survive despite the same ailment. And it gives us a vocabulary for identifying similar people from whom we can learn and in whom we can find solidarity. All of those things being are rewarding and/or useful.
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago
  [dead]
thrance 2y ago
If some find solace in religion, then good for them! But some (most?) are able to lead fulfilled lives without religion, and some lead outright miserable lives even with Jesus/YHWH/Allah/Quetzalcoatl in their hearts.
mcphage 2y ago
Religious people have all the same identity issues as non religious people. I’ve been around too many religious people to think otherwise.
- Teever 2y ago
  That's what I'm saying. We all have these problems, people cope with them differently. Some people fill that hole with religion "hurr durr, I'm a Catholic, others fill it withs "hurr durr, I'm an Oilers fan" and others fill it with psychiatric labels "Hurr durr I'm an autistic bipolar type II" Different sides of the same coin.
  - mcphage 2y ago
    I agree with this, but I wouldn’t call it a “god shaped hole” any more than I’d call it an “oilers shaped hole”.
    - Teever 2y ago
      I would, because the thing that used to primarily fill this hole was religion, and thats the hole people are trying to stuff. I'm not religious btw, this is just what I see.
      - mcphage 2y ago
        > the thing that used to primarily fill this hole was religion, and thats the hole people are trying to stuff Calling it "a hole" even, is stretching the metaphor too far. People have needs, and religion has often been used to fill that need, as has nationalism, and occupations, and any other thing. But there isn't a single "hole", and that hole doesn't have a "shape". There's just people who have needs, and ways people have tried to fulfill those needs.
thinkingemote 2y ago
At root it's kind of like this, you were right about God but it's not really about religion or religious people in the West. It's about looking for identity within and choosing something versus having something chosen for you. We name ourselves. Now we can choose our identity to be anything and even physical and biological reality is less important than our choices. We are told to find ourselves, fulfilment, belonging and direction within ourselves. A person can choose their religion now, they can label themselves according to what they believe in. For many in the West religion is a kind of loose political or ideological club. For many, religion and identity is found and chosen from within. "it's the real me", "I have found the meaning in my life by this chosen identity". But it has not been this way forever, and in other (non-Western) parts of the world it's still another way. The other way is to have your identity defined from above or outside you. For most people who we were, our identities were defined according to our position, where we lived, what our father did, what the culture was. Your father named you. To be "real" you would behave according to what identity had been given to you. Ultimately God is above everything and with regard to identities, symbolically represents this top down giving of a meaning of life. I guess it's making the hole bigger than trying to fill it with something else. Edits: a) I suppose that some older religious people who were "born into it" might be more towards identity-from-outside. b) It would work with non religious people in identity-from-outside cultures. Stereotypical examples: a farmer in rural China, a salaryman in Japan or a peasant in 17th Century Germany. Or a culture where children are encouraged to "do their best" with what they have at hand vs "find themselves" with things they might discover.
talldayo 2y ago
A god-shaped hole, or a gap where god once was? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

by Teever 2y ago

idontknowifican 2y ago

it always felt a bit more reactionary to me. a lot of people feel like they were unjustly treated, and the label helps them feel better about that stuff. normally i have seen an adult with a fresh diagnosis go really hard in to that identity, only to realize they over did it and land in a more neutral space. as someone who has a bunch of adult friends getting autism or add/adhd diagnosed, there is an immediate phase of “all of my problems are caused by this”, followed by “how do i cope with this”, and finally “this is just helpful context for me”. there are quite a few that get stuck on one of those phases, but largely most people loop back around to a more reasonable view.

pxc 2y ago

> god-shaped hole This cliche phrase definitely takes me back! The problem here is of course that gods aren't capable of solving this kind of problem anyway; an external, instrumental purpose ('God made me to do X', or 'God created me to have Y effect on the world') isn't meaningful in the way people want intrinsic or subjective purposes to be anyway. In that sense religious institutions provide the same kind of earthly, banal, limited meaning that hackerspaces or secular charities or sports clubs or families do. But they're not any better at making existentialist yearnings well-formed than anything else is. I also don't think all that is necessary to explain the phenomenon at hand. That account is way too broad. Imo the drive here is more narrative; it's about making the stories of our lives make sense— often in the simple sense of making them unsurprising. Discovering a diagnosis can be very cathartic, and can (partially) explain lots of patterns and events from one's past. It also brings some relief because it tells us that we are not uniquely defective in our failings and points us towards examples of others who have managed to succeed or survive despite the same ailment. And it gives us a vocabulary for identifying similar people from whom we can learn and in whom we can find solidarity. All of those things being are rewarding and/or useful.

Slava_Propanei 2y ago
[dead]

thrance 2y ago

If some find solace in religion, then good for them! But some (most?) are able to lead fulfilled lives without religion, and some lead outright miserable lives even with Jesus/YHWH/Allah/Quetzalcoatl in their hearts.

mcphage 2y ago

Religious people have all the same identity issues as non religious people. I’ve been around too many religious people to think otherwise.

Teever 2y ago
That's what I'm saying. We all have these problems, people cope with them differently. Some people fill that hole with religion "hurr durr, I'm a Catholic, others fill it withs "hurr durr, I'm an Oilers fan" and others fill it with psychiatric labels "Hurr durr I'm an autistic bipolar type II" Different sides of the same coin.
- mcphage 2y ago
  I agree with this, but I wouldn’t call it a “god shaped hole” any more than I’d call it an “oilers shaped hole”.
  - Teever 2y ago
    I would, because the thing that used to primarily fill this hole was religion, and thats the hole people are trying to stuff. I'm not religious btw, this is just what I see.
    - mcphage 2y ago
      > the thing that used to primarily fill this hole was religion, and thats the hole people are trying to stuff Calling it "a hole" even, is stretching the metaphor too far. People have needs, and religion has often been used to fill that need, as has nationalism, and occupations, and any other thing. But there isn't a single "hole", and that hole doesn't have a "shape". There's just people who have needs, and ways people have tried to fulfill those needs.

thinkingemote 2y ago

At root it's kind of like this, you were right about God but it's not really about religion or religious people in the West. It's about looking for identity within and choosing something versus having something chosen for you. We name ourselves. Now we can choose our identity to be anything and even physical and biological reality is less important than our choices. We are told to find ourselves, fulfilment, belonging and direction within ourselves. A person can choose their religion now, they can label themselves according to what they believe in. For many in the West religion is a kind of loose political or ideological club. For many, religion and identity is found and chosen from within. "it's the real me", "I have found the meaning in my life by this chosen identity". But it has not been this way forever, and in other (non-Western) parts of the world it's still another way. The other way is to have your identity defined from above or outside you. For most people who we were, our identities were defined according to our position, where we lived, what our father did, what the culture was. Your father named you. To be "real" you would behave according to what identity had been given to you. Ultimately God is above everything and with regard to identities, symbolically represents this top down giving of a meaning of life. I guess it's making the hole bigger than trying to fill it with something else. Edits: a) I suppose that some older religious people who were "born into it" might be more towards identity-from-outside. b) It would work with non religious people in identity-from-outside cultures. Stereotypical examples: a farmer in rural China, a salaryman in Japan or a peasant in 17th Century Germany. Or a culture where children are encouraged to "do their best" with what they have at hand vs "find themselves" with things they might discover.

talldayo 2y ago

A god-shaped hole, or a gap where god once was? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps