4 ms·

> filling up a gas tank in 1-2 minutes It doesn't help the comparison to lie about the time. If you have a smaller gas tank and the pump can fill at it's maxi

> filling up a gas tank in 1-2 minutes It doesn't help the comparison to lie about the time. If you have a smaller gas tank and the pump can fill at it's maximum speed, you can fill in 1-2 minutes from the moment you put the nozzle in. As a practical matter, you're rarely getting in and out of a gas station in under 5 minutes, and only then if it's completely empty when you arrive. When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time -- the pump rarely runs at full speed or the vapor pressure sensor trips, the tank is pretty big, and there's usually a few cars in line in front of me. 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic. Most EVs only need a "fill up" on a road trip, and AAA puts the average road trip refueling stop at 15 minutes. The technology in place today is adequate to do the same with EVs, and it only gets better every year. Battery swapping was a cute idea for a while but kinda pointless now. Of course, all of this talk about time completely ignores that an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling their vehicle. 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive home, full every morning. Imagine trying to sell someone on the idea of going the other direction "Hey, buy this fancy car, it's great, but you have to take it to a dedicated location periodically just to keep it fueled up."

ItsBob 2y ago
> 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic. Blimey! Lord only knows where you live that it can take that long. I can count on one hand the number of times it's taken anything like 10 minutes over the years and they were during crises! In reality, even if I have to wait for a free pump, my car is at 100% range in 5 mins when I pay at the pump by using my credit card. I want my car filled to the brim any time I go to the petrol station (gas station to our friends over in the colonies :D). That's just how I roll. And I know many others who are the same. I also know some that just put in £10-£15 at a time, mainly due to finance constraints tbh. To "fill" an electric car to 100% isn't feasible in 2 hours, let alone 5 mins. Even if it took just 20 minutes to "fill" it is still shit compared to my current diesel. As a consumer, if I have to join a queue for hours [0] then to hell with that! However, with my diesel, it's literally 5 minutes once a week and I'm full up. In addition, I run my car until 50 - 100 miles left in the tank and I don't get bent out of shape when the light comes on at < 50 miles. In an EV I'd shit bricks if that happened. I'd have to change my behaviour to many smaller topups. The simple fact is that we have a chicken and egg scenario with EV's vs charging points/charging time at this time and I don't see it changing any time soon. Anecdote: I just remember something I saw 3 weeks ago. I was in a town near where I live. I parked up to walk to a shop about 2 mins away and I walked past a girl at a charging station staring at the big charger thingy while on her phone. I couldn't hear what she was saying but I could see that the charging flap on her car was open. I was in the shop for about 10 minutes and came back the same way and she was still there, this time poking away at her phone and the cable still wasn't in her car but the charging flap was still open. No idea what the problem was but it caught my attention. Anyway, just thought I'd share. Edit: Something else to mention - Many people round where I live are in Victorian flats with almost no parking nearby. It's not umcommon to park streets away from where you actually live... they'll not buy electric for the most part. [0] - https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/video-massive-line-of-electric-vehicles-wait-to-charge-after-11-pm/ar-AA1jEvfR https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/video-massive-line-of-e...
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  > To "fill" an electric car to 100% isn't feasible in 2 hours, let alone 5 mins. Even if it took just 20 minutes to "fill" it is still shit compared to my current diesel. It takes me 0 minutes to fill my EV. Plug in at night and full in the morning (and pre-heated / de-iced on an automatic schedule too). Going somewhere else and standing for 5 minutes once a week isn’t something I’d rush back to. Edit: My anecdote is about my mum filling up the car with petrol instead of diesel because the handle of the pump was black. You don’t want to know how long we waited for that.
  - ItsBob 2y ago
    The pre-heating/de-icing does sound nice, I'll give you that but EV's just do not work if you live in a flat and unfortunately in and around the cities in the UK there are millions living in flats. Of course, many living in flats won't have a car so that's moot but walk up any street with Victorian 4 floor flats and you'll not see a single parking space available outside them: they're all taken, all the time, but not necessarily by the people that live immediately next to them. Even if they do manage to park right outside their flat, they won't be trailing a cable from their window :D For me, EV's do not make sense for a significant portion of the people driving in the UK. Perhaps the majority. I don't have numbers to back that up but my argument about flats still stands. What I do think makes sense is hybrids (assuming cost parity!). Put a small 30-mile battery in new cars. Let it charge from braking. Use it only when going from 0 - 30 or even just below 30 only and I bet you'd significantly reduce your fuel bills (and carbon if that's part of your reasoning for purchase). I drive a 9 yo Hyundai diesel so I have a cheap car anyway.
    - thebruce87m 2y ago
      I’m in the UK. There are a million EVs already out there yet I’m the only one on my street of 100 houses with one. Each of those houses has a drive. They are not for everyone but there is plenty of room for growth. It costs me 3p/mile to run it too saving me about £100/month. Self charging hybrids are a waste of time. My Hyundai i20 1.1 diesel got 60mpg while my colleagues hybrid got 50. Plug-in hybrids are slightly better, but you’ve got additional complexity and all the maintenance of an ICE. Plus you are cycling the small battery more. 1,000 cycles on a 250 mile battery is 250,000 miles - on a 30 mile battery it’s 30,000.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
well I fill up a sedan (~13 gallons), So 2-3 minutes fits unless I'm in a long line. I'd only be spending 15+ minutes in a Costco line. >all of this talk about time completely ignores that an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling their vehicle. Depends on how readily you have access to a charging port at home/work. if you have no garage to park in and charge overnight with, you're pretty much stuck at some public space for 30 minutes minimum (assuming fast charging).
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  > Depends on how readily you have access to a charging port at home/work. if you have no garage to park in and charge overnight with, you're pretty much stuck at some public space for 30 minutes minimum (assuming fast charging). Right; as the article puts it, > The majority of today’s American EV owners charge at home, but more than 20 percent of US households don’t have access to consistent off-street parking where they can plug in overnight. The public charging network, meanwhile, can be spotty, and drivers have complained that chargers aren’t always well maintained or even functioning. Although, that said, it's possible that getting 80% of cars to be EVs would be a big win already; assuming the number really is 20% that may not be a big problem.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    People who rely on street parking don’t buy EV
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
> When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time -- the pump rarely runs at full speed or the vapor pressure sensor trips, the tank is pretty big, and there's usually a few cars in line in front of me. 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic. I'm willing to believe that it takes 15-20 minutes to fill your pickup, but that's a far outlier. If I was guessing, I'd say that your tank is a factor larger than most cars, and I'd also say that I can't remember the vapor pressure sensor malfunctioning like that and that's also skewing your data.
- rascul 2y ago
  It takes about 3-4 minutes to fill my 30 gallon tank from near empty at the Murphy's in town here. 15-20 minutes seems crazy unless it's a huge tank in the bed of the truck. And I've not had a vapor issue with them either, they fill at full speed.
jjav 2y ago
> When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time Well yes if you have a huge pickup that can take a while. I have 35 gallon tank on the pickup and it does take a while (never measured it so not sure how many minutes). But on our regular cars, it takes less than 2 minutes to fill the tank. > Of course, all of this talk about time completely ignores that an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling their vehicle. Well the EV driver spends less "CPU time" (using computer analogy) since they plug it in and go do something else. But the wall-clock-time is orders of magnitude higher so if the battery is empty and you need to go somewhere, it's not happening very soon.

ItsBob 2y ago

> 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic. Blimey! Lord only knows where you live that it can take that long. I can count on one hand the number of times it's taken anything like 10 minutes over the years and they were during crises! In reality, even if I have to wait for a free pump, my car is at 100% range in 5 mins when I pay at the pump by using my credit card. I want my car filled to the brim any time I go to the petrol station (gas station to our friends over in the colonies :D). That's just how I roll. And I know many others who are the same. I also know some that just put in £10-£15 at a time, mainly due to finance constraints tbh. To "fill" an electric car to 100% isn't feasible in 2 hours, let alone 5 mins. Even if it took just 20 minutes to "fill" it is still shit compared to my current diesel. As a consumer, if I have to join a queue for hours [0] then to hell with that! However, with my diesel, it's literally 5 minutes once a week and I'm full up. In addition, I run my car until 50 - 100 miles left in the tank and I don't get bent out of shape when the light comes on at < 50 miles. In an EV I'd shit bricks if that happened. I'd have to change my behaviour to many smaller topups. The simple fact is that we have a chicken and egg scenario with EV's vs charging points/charging time at this time and I don't see it changing any time soon. Anecdote: I just remember something I saw 3 weeks ago. I was in a town near where I live. I parked up to walk to a shop about 2 mins away and I walked past a girl at a charging station staring at the big charger thingy while on her phone. I couldn't hear what she was saying but I could see that the charging flap on her car was open. I was in the shop for about 10 minutes and came back the same way and she was still there, this time poking away at her phone and the cable still wasn't in her car but the charging flap was still open. No idea what the problem was but it caught my attention. Anyway, just thought I'd share. Edit: Something else to mention - Many people round where I live are in Victorian flats with almost no parking nearby. It's not umcommon to park streets away from where you actually live... they'll not buy electric for the most part. [0] - https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/video-massive-line-of-electric-vehicles-wait-to-charge-after-11-pm/ar-AA1jEvfR https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/video-massive-line-of-e...

thebruce87m 2y ago
> To "fill" an electric car to 100% isn't feasible in 2 hours, let alone 5 mins. Even if it took just 20 minutes to "fill" it is still shit compared to my current diesel. It takes me 0 minutes to fill my EV. Plug in at night and full in the morning (and pre-heated / de-iced on an automatic schedule too). Going somewhere else and standing for 5 minutes once a week isn’t something I’d rush back to. Edit: My anecdote is about my mum filling up the car with petrol instead of diesel because the handle of the pump was black. You don’t want to know how long we waited for that.
- ItsBob 2y ago
  The pre-heating/de-icing does sound nice, I'll give you that but EV's just do not work if you live in a flat and unfortunately in and around the cities in the UK there are millions living in flats. Of course, many living in flats won't have a car so that's moot but walk up any street with Victorian 4 floor flats and you'll not see a single parking space available outside them: they're all taken, all the time, but not necessarily by the people that live immediately next to them. Even if they do manage to park right outside their flat, they won't be trailing a cable from their window :D For me, EV's do not make sense for a significant portion of the people driving in the UK. Perhaps the majority. I don't have numbers to back that up but my argument about flats still stands. What I do think makes sense is hybrids (assuming cost parity!). Put a small 30-mile battery in new cars. Let it charge from braking. Use it only when going from 0 - 30 or even just below 30 only and I bet you'd significantly reduce your fuel bills (and carbon if that's part of your reasoning for purchase). I drive a 9 yo Hyundai diesel so I have a cheap car anyway.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    I’m in the UK. There are a million EVs already out there yet I’m the only one on my street of 100 houses with one. Each of those houses has a drive. They are not for everyone but there is plenty of room for growth. It costs me 3p/mile to run it too saving me about £100/month. Self charging hybrids are a waste of time. My Hyundai i20 1.1 diesel got 60mpg while my colleagues hybrid got 50. Plug-in hybrids are slightly better, but you’ve got additional complexity and all the maintenance of an ICE. Plus you are cycling the small battery more. 1,000 cycles on a 250 mile battery is 250,000 miles - on a 30 mile battery it’s 30,000.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

well I fill up a sedan (~13 gallons), So 2-3 minutes fits unless I'm in a long line. I'd only be spending 15+ minutes in a Costco line. >all of this talk about time completely ignores that an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling their vehicle. Depends on how readily you have access to a charging port at home/work. if you have no garage to park in and charge overnight with, you're pretty much stuck at some public space for 30 minutes minimum (assuming fast charging).

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
> Depends on how readily you have access to a charging port at home/work. if you have no garage to park in and charge overnight with, you're pretty much stuck at some public space for 30 minutes minimum (assuming fast charging). Right; as the article puts it, > The majority of today’s American EV owners charge at home, but more than 20 percent of US households don’t have access to consistent off-street parking where they can plug in overnight. The public charging network, meanwhile, can be spotty, and drivers have complained that chargers aren’t always well maintained or even functioning. Although, that said, it's possible that getting 80% of cars to be EVs would be a big win already; assuming the number really is 20% that may not be a big problem.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  People who rely on street parking don’t buy EV

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago

> When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time -- the pump rarely runs at full speed or the vapor pressure sensor trips, the tank is pretty big, and there's usually a few cars in line in front of me. 15-20 minutes is a lot closer to realistic. I'm willing to believe that it takes 15-20 minutes to fill your pickup, but that's a far outlier. If I was guessing, I'd say that your tank is a factor larger than most cars, and I'd also say that I can't remember the vapor pressure sensor malfunctioning like that and that's also skewing your data.

rascul 2y ago
It takes about 3-4 minutes to fill my 30 gallon tank from near empty at the Murphy's in town here. 15-20 minutes seems crazy unless it's a huge tank in the bed of the truck. And I've not had a vapor issue with them either, they fill at full speed.

jjav 2y ago

> When I'm filling up our pickup, it takes a good bit of time Well yes if you have a huge pickup that can take a while. I have 35 gallon tank on the pickup and it does take a while (never measured it so not sure how many minutes). But on our regular cars, it takes less than 2 minutes to fill the tank. > Of course, all of this talk about time completely ignores that an EV driver spends quite a lot less time every year refueling their vehicle. Well the EV driver spends less "CPU time" (using computer analogy) since they plug it in and go do something else. But the wall-clock-time is orders of magnitude higher so if the battery is empty and you need to go somewhere, it's not happening very soon.