3 ms·

> Clojure (/ˈkloʊʒər/, like closure)] is a dynamic and functional dialect of the Lisp programming language on the Java platform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

> Clojure (/ˈkloʊʒər/, like closure)] is a dynamic and functional dialect of the Lisp programming language on the Java platform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure I believe I've said this to you before in the context of Scheme: the Common Lisp community doesn't get the final vote as to what is or is not a Lisp. As to your example, it's at least as likely that someone would be turned off Lisp by using Common Lisp, and someone else might suggest Clojure as a remedy to whatever issues they had with it.

kazinator 2y ago
> someone would be turned off Lisp by using Common Lisp But that's at least a consistent situation. That user experienced an example of actual Lisp and was turned off. > suggest Clojure as a remedy So, there it helps Clojure to just be Clojure and not to identify as Lisp, what the user was turned off of.
- samatman 2y ago
  Clojure is a Lisp.
  - iLemming 2y ago
    Of course it is. Does it have the following? - Code as Data? Check - Homoiconicity? Check - First-class Functions? Check - Macro System? Check - Automated memory management? Check - REPL-driven interactive development? Check I don't know what else do they want. I feel like this is some kind of "programming language racism" and "Lisp eugenics" bullcrap. Yes, Clojure is different than Common Lisp, but it is important to recognize that diversity in languages and their ecosystems can be valuable, and differences don't diminish the contributions or identity of a language within the broader Lisp family. Why can't we instead borrow good ideas from Clojure and implement them in CL and vice-versa? I love Lisps. I love Common Lisp and Clojure, Fennel and even Emacs Lisp. Whenever I need to jump between Javascript and Typescript or even between different frameworks, I feel like I'm programming in different languages. That doesn't happen with Lisp. I can relatively easily switch between Clojure, Clojurescript, Clojure-Dart, Fennel, Emacs Lisp and CL and still feel like I'm programming using the same language. Completely different platforms - same language. I really don't understand what this fuzz is about. Clojure is a Lisp.
    - kazinator 2y ago
      OK, you have rules for what is and is not Lisp. Rules different from yours are wrong. Gotcha! I think that the lack of an interactive experience is not necessarily a deal breaker. We could have a Lisp implementation which compiles to an executable image which doesn't run until uploaded to a target. This could use an existing dialect like Common Lisp or Scheme and be used by Lisp programmers to deploy some of their existing programs. If you were to fix your rules to be more inclusive, it would be more consistent with your diversity rhetoric. (Not saying you should do anything; your rules are your business.)
      - iLemming 2y ago
        > OK, you have rules for what is and is not Lisp. These are not "my rules," I didn't make up this shit. Many renowned computer scientists have spoken about Clojure and at Clojure conferences: Guy Steele, Paul Graham, Matthias Felleisen, Gerald Jay Sussman, Daniel Friedman,... [some names just off the top of my head]. I'm pretty sure, if not all of them, most of them would definitely say "Clojure is a Lisp". So, until someone of that caliber steps onto the stage and tells us differently, that's what I'm calling it.

kazinator 2y ago

> someone would be turned off Lisp by using Common Lisp But that's at least a consistent situation. That user experienced an example of actual Lisp and was turned off. > suggest Clojure as a remedy So, there it helps Clojure to just be Clojure and not to identify as Lisp, what the user was turned off of.

samatman 2y ago
Clojure is a Lisp.
- iLemming 2y ago
  Of course it is. Does it have the following? - Code as Data? Check - Homoiconicity? Check - First-class Functions? Check - Macro System? Check - Automated memory management? Check - REPL-driven interactive development? Check I don't know what else do they want. I feel like this is some kind of "programming language racism" and "Lisp eugenics" bullcrap. Yes, Clojure is different than Common Lisp, but it is important to recognize that diversity in languages and their ecosystems can be valuable, and differences don't diminish the contributions or identity of a language within the broader Lisp family. Why can't we instead borrow good ideas from Clojure and implement them in CL and vice-versa? I love Lisps. I love Common Lisp and Clojure, Fennel and even Emacs Lisp. Whenever I need to jump between Javascript and Typescript or even between different frameworks, I feel like I'm programming in different languages. That doesn't happen with Lisp. I can relatively easily switch between Clojure, Clojurescript, Clojure-Dart, Fennel, Emacs Lisp and CL and still feel like I'm programming using the same language. Completely different platforms - same language. I really don't understand what this fuzz is about. Clojure is a Lisp.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    OK, you have rules for what is and is not Lisp. Rules different from yours are wrong. Gotcha! I think that the lack of an interactive experience is not necessarily a deal breaker. We could have a Lisp implementation which compiles to an executable image which doesn't run until uploaded to a target. This could use an existing dialect like Common Lisp or Scheme and be used by Lisp programmers to deploy some of their existing programs. If you were to fix your rules to be more inclusive, it would be more consistent with your diversity rhetoric. (Not saying you should do anything; your rules are your business.)
    - iLemming 2y ago
      > OK, you have rules for what is and is not Lisp. These are not "my rules," I didn't make up this shit. Many renowned computer scientists have spoken about Clojure and at Clojure conferences: Guy Steele, Paul Graham, Matthias Felleisen, Gerald Jay Sussman, Daniel Friedman,... [some names just off the top of my head]. I'm pretty sure, if not all of them, most of them would definitely say "Clojure is a Lisp". So, until someone of that caliber steps onto the stage and tells us differently, that's what I'm calling it.