4 ms·

> “Seriously, screw urbanization and gentrification. We absolutely need to revitalize rural areas again.” Covid-19 was effectively a massive experiment to test

by pavlov 2y ago

> “Seriously, screw urbanization and gentrification. We absolutely need to revitalize rural areas again.” Covid-19 was effectively a massive experiment to test whether people want that, and turns out they didn’t.

Rinzler89 2y ago
People want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the peace and quiet of single family homes with lots of space of rural areas for their garden and kids, with the job opportunities, infrastructure and amenities of modern dense hip vibrant cities where the best schools, jobs and entertainment are within walking distance or short commutes by public transportation. There's obviously gonna be a shortage of such housing arrangements, and therefore will come at hefty prices everywhere.
mschuster91 2y ago
Of course they did want space. Turns out most people can't stand being locked up like chicken in too small coops too long. Domestic violence exploded for example - and that's only from those who were actually able to call police [1]. On positiver notes, you had stuff like urban gardening increase in popularity [2], or sales of (e-)bikes towards people who went and biked to the rural areas. And finally, WFH made it possible for a lot of people to give up their expensive city housing and move out into the suburbs... but obviously nowhere near enough to make a serious dent in demand, and RTO policies are creeping up and destroying even that bit of progress. [1] https://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/06/shadow-pandemic-of-domestic-violence/ https://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/06/shadow-pa... [2] https://caes.ucdavis.edu/news/people-turned-gardening-stress-relief-food-access-during-pandemic https://caes.ucdavis.edu/news/people-turned-gardening-stress...
- twixfel 2y ago
  I don't really see a decrease in population density and the corresponding increase in cars on the road as "progress", otherwise you're about to tell me that American-style giga suburbs are the answer to our problems. Densification is actually the answer as it's a far more efficient use of resources.
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    Densification only works when designing an area from scratch (like China), when you spend many many billions on retrofits or when it was built with sufficient sprawl to accommodate expansions in infrastructure. You can't just go and tear down other peoples' houses here, it's not the Soviet Union.
    - jltsiren 2y ago
      Densification works organically when you don't ban it. That's the way cities have always grown. You plan for the future, upzone areas when appropriate, let the property owners determine what's in their best interests, and collaborate with them to ensure that the necessary infrastructure gets built.
      - mschuster91 2y ago
        > You plan for the future, upzone areas when appropriate That is a luxury Americans and Asians have, simply because there is/has been just so much unsettled land available. Here in Europe, our cities are quite literally millennia old, some such as Rome dating back to the earliest days of recorded human civilization. It is incredibly difficult to retrofit anything there, and that's before you take archaeological and landmark protection demands into account.
        twixfel 2y ago
        It's not a luxury only they have, and Asia has lots of ancient cities too, sorry to disappoint you but urbanisation did not begin in Europe. Just down the road from me in the middle of the city we have a huge Kleingartenverein. That area could be flats, boom—city's denser. Your take that it's impossible to make European cities denser just doesn't make any sense at all.
        mschuster91 2y ago
        Yeah, and yet another piece of valuable biodiversity, yet another green zone down the drain. "Kleingärten" serve a vital and valuable role in a city's ecology.

by pavlov 2y ago

Rinzler89 2y ago

People want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the peace and quiet of single family homes with lots of space of rural areas for their garden and kids, with the job opportunities, infrastructure and amenities of modern dense hip vibrant cities where the best schools, jobs and entertainment are within walking distance or short commutes by public transportation. There's obviously gonna be a shortage of such housing arrangements, and therefore will come at hefty prices everywhere.

mschuster91 2y ago

Of course they did want space. Turns out most people can't stand being locked up like chicken in too small coops too long. Domestic violence exploded for example - and that's only from those who were actually able to call police [1]. On positiver notes, you had stuff like urban gardening increase in popularity [2], or sales of (e-)bikes towards people who went and biked to the rural areas. And finally, WFH made it possible for a lot of people to give up their expensive city housing and move out into the suburbs... but obviously nowhere near enough to make a serious dent in demand, and RTO policies are creeping up and destroying even that bit of progress. [1] https://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/06/shadow-pandemic-of-domestic-violence/ https://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/06/shadow-pa... [2] https://caes.ucdavis.edu/news/people-turned-gardening-stress-relief-food-access-during-pandemic https://caes.ucdavis.edu/news/people-turned-gardening-stress...

twixfel 2y ago
I don't really see a decrease in population density and the corresponding increase in cars on the road as "progress", otherwise you're about to tell me that American-style giga suburbs are the answer to our problems. Densification is actually the answer as it's a far more efficient use of resources.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  Densification only works when designing an area from scratch (like China), when you spend many many billions on retrofits or when it was built with sufficient sprawl to accommodate expansions in infrastructure. You can't just go and tear down other peoples' houses here, it's not the Soviet Union.
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Densification works organically when you don't ban it. That's the way cities have always grown. You plan for the future, upzone areas when appropriate, let the property owners determine what's in their best interests, and collaborate with them to ensure that the necessary infrastructure gets built.
    - mschuster91 2y ago
      > You plan for the future, upzone areas when appropriate That is a luxury Americans and Asians have, simply because there is/has been just so much unsettled land available. Here in Europe, our cities are quite literally millennia old, some such as Rome dating back to the earliest days of recorded human civilization. It is incredibly difficult to retrofit anything there, and that's before you take archaeological and landmark protection demands into account.
      - twixfel 2y ago
        It's not a luxury only they have, and Asia has lots of ancient cities too, sorry to disappoint you but urbanisation did not begin in Europe. Just down the road from me in the middle of the city we have a huge Kleingartenverein. That area could be flats, boom—city's denser. Your take that it's impossible to make European cities denser just doesn't make any sense at all.
        mschuster91 2y ago
        Yeah, and yet another piece of valuable biodiversity, yet another green zone down the drain. "Kleingärten" serve a vital and valuable role in a city's ecology.