4 ms·

OK, so I'm not saying correctly. Thank you. Here's what I need to convey: People want it to be an agent, but it's not an agent and if you expect it to be one

OK, so I'm not saying correctly. Thank you. Here's what I need to convey: People want it to be an agent, but it's not an agent and if you expect it to be one you get a false negative. The risk is you then assume its immature or not yet up to the task. But the bulk of what employers pay programmers for: searching google and integrating solutions -- that was automated away the second GPT 4 came out. You can leverage that to think like an employer and get these glorious chunks of labor that used to cost thousands of dollars and take days. Do you see what I'm saying or am I still saying something wrong?

aurareturn 2y ago
But your title said "has automated them away". Do you think GPT4 can truly replace everything that programmers do? Taking vague instructions and turning them into working solutions? I don't think so. GPT4 is really far away from that. You can look at Devin (powered by GPT4) and see that it can only 13.86% of issues on real world projects without human intervention. That's a tiny number. I'd bet that it performs even worse for internal projects due to more complexity in business requirements, and worse written specs (open source projects write better specs because they have to).
- johnwheeler 2y ago
  OK - you and this other kind soul in the thread at 5 AM PST (my time) are very much helping me understand how much I suck because you're exactly saying my point. People are looking at Devin and saying: "Gah, Parlor Trick!" GPT hasn't replaced the programmer! But what they're missing is that the bulk of what an experienced programmer does is search Google for Stack Overflow posts and use their extensive expertise to assemble together solutions. I am absolutely not saying that GPT has replaced the programmer--I'm saying people are too caught up in that to see what's really happened: My job, as a 24 year programmer, has been largely replaced. It hasn't been replaced, but it is largely automated freeing me to do other activities or more of the old activity at a new scale. What do you think now?
  - aurareturn 2y ago
    The bulk of what an experienced programmer does is communicate with business leaders on project goals, align teams, clarify specs, suggest specs, test technologies that can accomplish said goals, create a plan to adopt that technology, improve the efficiency of the team, fix really hard bugs that just broke production while customers are angry and your boss wants to kill you. I don't do that much Googling. It's a small part of my job.
    - johnwheeler 2y ago
      > I don't do that much Googling. If you're a software engineer and you're saying that, you're full of shit.
      - aurareturn 2y ago
        Why would I be full of shit. I go into the office for 8 hours. How many of those 8 hours do you think I spend on Google as a senior programmer? Probably 30 mins on average at most is my guess.
        verdverm 2y ago
        I concur, but would say the amount of search depends on the current task. Much of it is getting to the long-form content that LLMs would summarize, but you actually need to read the original source to get a complete understanding or find the quirks. I'm currently working on something that requires above average searching, but it is definitely something that an LLM fails hard at and requires pouring through copious numbers of content looking for the needle in the haystack. The current LLMs are ok at average or common tasks, but are miserable at anything uncommon, product of their architecture and training (currently trying to figure out how to get CentOS 7 -> Rocky 8 inplace upgrade with LUKS working, which is not supported in leapp...)
chrisjj 2y ago
I think the wrong bit is "bulk" in: "But the bulk of what employers pay programmers for: searching google and integrating solutions"
- johnwheeler 2y ago
  Thank you, I'll work on this.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    "But much of what..." Generic enough for everyone to interpret as they want, say from ten to ninety percent.
chrisjj 2y ago
ChatGPT Answers Programming Questions Incorrectly 52% of the Time: Study https://mail.google.com/mail/mu/mp/110/#cv/All%20Mail/18fb8dd153f9945d https://mail.google.com/mail/mu/mp/110/#cv/All%20Mail/18fb8d...

aurareturn 2y ago

But your title said "has automated them away". Do you think GPT4 can truly replace everything that programmers do? Taking vague instructions and turning them into working solutions? I don't think so. GPT4 is really far away from that. You can look at Devin (powered by GPT4) and see that it can only 13.86% of issues on real world projects without human intervention. That's a tiny number. I'd bet that it performs even worse for internal projects due to more complexity in business requirements, and worse written specs (open source projects write better specs because they have to).

johnwheeler 2y ago
OK - you and this other kind soul in the thread at 5 AM PST (my time) are very much helping me understand how much I suck because you're exactly saying my point. People are looking at Devin and saying: "Gah, Parlor Trick!" GPT hasn't replaced the programmer! But what they're missing is that the bulk of what an experienced programmer does is search Google for Stack Overflow posts and use their extensive expertise to assemble together solutions. I am absolutely not saying that GPT has replaced the programmer--I'm saying people are too caught up in that to see what's really happened: My job, as a 24 year programmer, has been largely replaced. It hasn't been replaced, but it is largely automated freeing me to do other activities or more of the old activity at a new scale. What do you think now?
- aurareturn 2y ago
  The bulk of what an experienced programmer does is communicate with business leaders on project goals, align teams, clarify specs, suggest specs, test technologies that can accomplish said goals, create a plan to adopt that technology, improve the efficiency of the team, fix really hard bugs that just broke production while customers are angry and your boss wants to kill you. I don't do that much Googling. It's a small part of my job.
  - johnwheeler 2y ago
    > I don't do that much Googling. If you're a software engineer and you're saying that, you're full of shit.
    - aurareturn 2y ago
      Why would I be full of shit. I go into the office for 8 hours. How many of those 8 hours do you think I spend on Google as a senior programmer? Probably 30 mins on average at most is my guess.
      - verdverm 2y ago
        I concur, but would say the amount of search depends on the current task. Much of it is getting to the long-form content that LLMs would summarize, but you actually need to read the original source to get a complete understanding or find the quirks. I'm currently working on something that requires above average searching, but it is definitely something that an LLM fails hard at and requires pouring through copious numbers of content looking for the needle in the haystack. The current LLMs are ok at average or common tasks, but are miserable at anything uncommon, product of their architecture and training (currently trying to figure out how to get CentOS 7 -> Rocky 8 inplace upgrade with LUKS working, which is not supported in leapp...)

chrisjj 2y ago

I think the wrong bit is "bulk" in: "But the bulk of what employers pay programmers for: searching google and integrating solutions"

johnwheeler 2y ago
Thank you, I'll work on this.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  "But much of what..." Generic enough for everyone to interpret as they want, say from ten to ninety percent.

chrisjj 2y ago

ChatGPT Answers Programming Questions Incorrectly 52% of the Time: Study https://mail.google.com/mail/mu/mp/110/#cv/All%20Mail/18fb8dd153f9945d https://mail.google.com/mail/mu/mp/110/#cv/All%20Mail/18fb8d...