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> The productivity benefits perhaps take us closer to the aspiration Keynes had when he wrote Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren in 1930, in which he

> The productivity benefits perhaps take us closer to the aspiration Keynes had when he wrote Economic Possibilities for our Grandchildren in 1930, in which he forecast that in a hundred years, thanks to technological advancements improving the standard of living, we could all be doing 15-hour work weeks. Well, you see, the benefits have to be split between capital and labor. The system is called "capitalism." Figure it out.

ben_w 2y ago
We have a higher standard of living than when the book was written. Even the basics have changed a lot: > It wasn't until the 1930s that new houses were built with indoor toilets and bathrooms as standard, says Zoe Hendon, head of museum collections at Middlesex University's Museum of Domestic Design and Architecture. "At that time, bathrooms were seen as a luxury." - https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210407-how-the-bathroom-became-the-ultimate-sanctuary https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210407-how-the-bathroo...
- rakoo 2y ago
  Capitalism isn't about standards of livings, it's about exploitation of the majority by and for a minority, whether you give the exploited shackles or golden shoes.
  - prox 2y ago
    Yup, if you read the major economic books coming out of the last decade, they all have that theme.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Capitalism, The Wealth of Nations, the observation that people making the best choices for themselves is often good for the collective benefit of society, because this reduces waste. A century later, communism, The Communist Manifesto, was the observation that in practice capitalism is, much like its various predecessors, yet another way for minorities to rule over the masses. Unfortunately, the utopian attempts to replace capitalism with communism have thus far demonstrated exactly the same problems that capitalism has. A century later, we got Nash game theory, formalising the tragedy of the commons, the prisoner's dilemma, etc., — I suspect "the next big thing" will be based on this. (Scare quotes because it may already exist: communist thought had precursors before the Manifesto, and there was a big gap between the publication of the Manifesto and the Russian revolution).
  - perkolator 2y ago
    Why are post like this even aloud on here? Anything economic related is ruined on this board by what sound like ignorant 14 year old children on economics.
  - perkolator 2y ago
    Why are post like this even aloud on here? Anything economic related is ruined on this board by what sound like ignorant 14 year old children on economics. Ignorant 14 year old children with an axe to grind with daddy.
- schmidtleonard 2y ago
  Most people in the US are worse off than their parents were at their age, and they are starting to notice.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Most people's parents weren't around in 1930 to see the publication of the book saying "in 2030, we will be able to enjoy our current (1930) lifestyle with only 15 hours of work each week" (or whatever the actual quote in the book was). If anything, that prediction was pessimistic — if you really want a 1930 lifestyle, you can probably do it with 5 hours a week.
    - schmidtleonard 2y ago
      Exactly what land do you think you can buy with 5 hours a week of labor, lol?
      - ben_w 2y ago
        In 1930, fewer than 10% of farms in the US had access to electricity; that kind of land is still cheap. Mocking responses like yours seem to keep missing how bad 1930 living conditions were: such a lifestyle is with one where the average person had no electricity and no indoor plumbing, no phone service, no internet, no TV: sure 5 hours per week is sufficient for that lifestyle. (Also, according to this graph, just under half of USA households in 1930 owned land, likewise just under half owned a car: https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2013/02/was-rise-of-car-ownership-responsible.html https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2013/02/was-rise-of-car-own...) You want land commensurate with that lifestyle? Sure, OK. $20/h (IIRC, the average American is about $43/h) * 5h/week * 52 weeks in a year = $5200, here's three options in the US where you could buy that in a year, which is much faster than what you need to pay off a house today: 1. 0.17 Acres, IN: https://www.land.com/property/Michigan-City-Indiana-46360/12589667/ https://www.land.com/property/Michigan-City-Indiana-46360/12... 2. 0.66 Acres, AR: https://www.land.com/property/1001-Ash-Flat-Dr-Horseshoe-Bend-Arkansas-72512/19628673/ https://www.land.com/property/1001-Ash-Flat-Dr-Horseshoe-Ben... 3. 1.13 Acres, NV: https://www.land.com/property/Spring-Creek-Nevada-89815/20311909/ https://www.land.com/property/Spring-Creek-Nevada-89815/2031... What do you live in on this land? Again, I want to emphasise that the average person in 1930 lived in conditions that Westerners would no longer accept including no indoor plumbing, no electricity, no TV, no internet, no phone (mobile or landline). We won't accept them today, but glorified garden sheds like this are what a lot of people called homes in 1930: https://www.kaufland.de/product/396861319/?vid=396861513 https://www.kaufland.de/product/396861319/?vid=396861513 And even adding $15k for the house to $5k for the land gets a total of $20k — a four year cost for someone working 5h per week on half the US average hourly rate. The current ratio of USA wages to house prices is $495,100 to $77,463/year, or 6.4 years.

ben_w 2y ago

We have a higher standard of living than when the book was written. Even the basics have changed a lot: > It wasn't until the 1930s that new houses were built with indoor toilets and bathrooms as standard, says Zoe Hendon, head of museum collections at Middlesex University's Museum of Domestic Design and Architecture. "At that time, bathrooms were seen as a luxury." - https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210407-how-the-bathroom-became-the-ultimate-sanctuary https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210407-how-the-bathroo...

rakoo 2y ago
Capitalism isn't about standards of livings, it's about exploitation of the majority by and for a minority, whether you give the exploited shackles or golden shoes.
- prox 2y ago
  Yup, if you read the major economic books coming out of the last decade, they all have that theme.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Capitalism, The Wealth of Nations, the observation that people making the best choices for themselves is often good for the collective benefit of society, because this reduces waste. A century later, communism, The Communist Manifesto, was the observation that in practice capitalism is, much like its various predecessors, yet another way for minorities to rule over the masses. Unfortunately, the utopian attempts to replace capitalism with communism have thus far demonstrated exactly the same problems that capitalism has. A century later, we got Nash game theory, formalising the tragedy of the commons, the prisoner's dilemma, etc., — I suspect "the next big thing" will be based on this. (Scare quotes because it may already exist: communist thought had precursors before the Manifesto, and there was a big gap between the publication of the Manifesto and the Russian revolution).
- perkolator 2y ago
  Why are post like this even aloud on here? Anything economic related is ruined on this board by what sound like ignorant 14 year old children on economics.
- perkolator 2y ago
  Why are post like this even aloud on here? Anything economic related is ruined on this board by what sound like ignorant 14 year old children on economics. Ignorant 14 year old children with an axe to grind with daddy.
schmidtleonard 2y ago
Most people in the US are worse off than their parents were at their age, and they are starting to notice.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Most people's parents weren't around in 1930 to see the publication of the book saying "in 2030, we will be able to enjoy our current (1930) lifestyle with only 15 hours of work each week" (or whatever the actual quote in the book was). If anything, that prediction was pessimistic — if you really want a 1930 lifestyle, you can probably do it with 5 hours a week.
  - schmidtleonard 2y ago
    Exactly what land do you think you can buy with 5 hours a week of labor, lol?
    - ben_w 2y ago
      In 1930, fewer than 10% of farms in the US had access to electricity; that kind of land is still cheap. Mocking responses like yours seem to keep missing how bad 1930 living conditions were: such a lifestyle is with one where the average person had no electricity and no indoor plumbing, no phone service, no internet, no TV: sure 5 hours per week is sufficient for that lifestyle. (Also, according to this graph, just under half of USA households in 1930 owned land, likewise just under half owned a car: https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2013/02/was-rise-of-car-ownership-responsible.html https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2013/02/was-rise-of-car-own...) You want land commensurate with that lifestyle? Sure, OK. $20/h (IIRC, the average American is about $43/h) * 5h/week * 52 weeks in a year = $5200, here's three options in the US where you could buy that in a year, which is much faster than what you need to pay off a house today: 1. 0.17 Acres, IN: https://www.land.com/property/Michigan-City-Indiana-46360/12589667/ https://www.land.com/property/Michigan-City-Indiana-46360/12... 2. 0.66 Acres, AR: https://www.land.com/property/1001-Ash-Flat-Dr-Horseshoe-Bend-Arkansas-72512/19628673/ https://www.land.com/property/1001-Ash-Flat-Dr-Horseshoe-Ben... 3. 1.13 Acres, NV: https://www.land.com/property/Spring-Creek-Nevada-89815/20311909/ https://www.land.com/property/Spring-Creek-Nevada-89815/2031... What do you live in on this land? Again, I want to emphasise that the average person in 1930 lived in conditions that Westerners would no longer accept including no indoor plumbing, no electricity, no TV, no internet, no phone (mobile or landline). We won't accept them today, but glorified garden sheds like this are what a lot of people called homes in 1930: https://www.kaufland.de/product/396861319/?vid=396861513 https://www.kaufland.de/product/396861319/?vid=396861513 And even adding $15k for the house to $5k for the land gets a total of $20k — a four year cost for someone working 5h per week on half the US average hourly rate. The current ratio of USA wages to house prices is $495,100 to $77,463/year, or 6.4 years.