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This is an interesting antithesis to Descartes' cogito ergo sum: instead of the "I" reassuring itself on the thought of a thinking being, thought arises from th

This is an interesting antithesis to Descartes' cogito ergo sum: instead of the "I" reassuring itself on the thought of a thinking being, thought arises from the assurance of the "I".

CSSer 2y ago
Descartes also thought that animals were little “automatons”. The model doesn’t quite pan out. It seems much more accurate to describe consciousness as emergent.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  It's been a while since I read Meditations on First Philosophy, but as I recall Descartes wasn't claiming that consciousness arises from thought. He was using the cogito as proof that even if you methodically doubt everything else (an evil demon is deceiving you, in his words), your thoughts prove that you must exist. He doesn't say your thoughts give rise to consciousness that I recall.
  - masswerk 2y ago
    That's how I recall it, as well. It's notable for establishing doubt as a method, and for finding a certain reassurance in this process (and not not for providing any theory of consciousness). What Helen Keller seems to describe is more akin to Lacan's 'pure life' or Hegel's sinnliche Gewissheit (sense-certainty) as kind of primordial basis for what leverages with consciousness (however, much like with Decartes' ego, this is really a retroactive reference).
  - CSSer 2y ago
    My point was that his theory on animals suggests a hard cut. He believed, or at least operated at a time where the church required he believe, that humans were special. This doesn’t work. Dogs and monkeys are just one clear example of kinds of reasoning that aren’t unique to us. However, as I recall your explanation is also still correct. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    I don't know about whether or not Decartes truly existed, but I do know I'm just a figment of your imagination.
bottom999mottob 2y ago
Descarte didn't say thinking implies self-consciousness. That saying is a thought experiment about the existance of self regardless of sensory stimulus, not a declaration of self-consciousness...
- masswerk 2y ago
  Notably Keller isolates here the concept of thought from consciousness, as well. (This is really a prerequisite of that piece.) And, as stated, Descartes' is a figure of reassurance (not of emergence, causation, etc.). In other words: Descarts' ego is essentially a retroactive entity (reassuring and celebrating itself in a program of doubt as the highest retroactive activity), whereas, in Keller's recollections, we meet the self as an entity emerging out of a sea of thoughtless awareness (thanks to having been appointed by a concept). What both have in common, is the principal idea that thought may be separated from awareness (and vice versa), but not from self-awareness: there is no thought without a subject.
jacobsimon 2y ago
Wow so funny to see this post and comment right now, I’ve been writing out a lot of thoughts/theories on consciousness the last few days, and came to a very similar conclusion as you.
- rramadass 2y ago
  You might find this interesting - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479388

This is an interesting antithesis to Descartes' cogito ergo sum: instead of the "I" reassuring itself on the thought of a thinking being, thought arises from the assurance of the "I".

CSSer 2y ago

Descartes also thought that animals were little “automatons”. The model doesn’t quite pan out. It seems much more accurate to describe consciousness as emergent.

bigstrat2003 2y ago
It's been a while since I read Meditations on First Philosophy, but as I recall Descartes wasn't claiming that consciousness arises from thought. He was using the cogito as proof that even if you methodically doubt everything else (an evil demon is deceiving you, in his words), your thoughts prove that you must exist. He doesn't say your thoughts give rise to consciousness that I recall.
- masswerk 2y ago
  That's how I recall it, as well. It's notable for establishing doubt as a method, and for finding a certain reassurance in this process (and not not for providing any theory of consciousness). What Helen Keller seems to describe is more akin to Lacan's 'pure life' or Hegel's sinnliche Gewissheit (sense-certainty) as kind of primordial basis for what leverages with consciousness (however, much like with Decartes' ego, this is really a retroactive reference).
- CSSer 2y ago
  My point was that his theory on animals suggests a hard cut. He believed, or at least operated at a time where the church required he believe, that humans were special. This doesn’t work. Dogs and monkeys are just one clear example of kinds of reasoning that aren’t unique to us. However, as I recall your explanation is also still correct. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  I don't know about whether or not Decartes truly existed, but I do know I'm just a figment of your imagination.

bottom999mottob 2y ago

Descarte didn't say thinking implies self-consciousness. That saying is a thought experiment about the existance of self regardless of sensory stimulus, not a declaration of self-consciousness...

masswerk 2y ago
Notably Keller isolates here the concept of thought from consciousness, as well. (This is really a prerequisite of that piece.) And, as stated, Descartes' is a figure of reassurance (not of emergence, causation, etc.). In other words: Descarts' ego is essentially a retroactive entity (reassuring and celebrating itself in a program of doubt as the highest retroactive activity), whereas, in Keller's recollections, we meet the self as an entity emerging out of a sea of thoughtless awareness (thanks to having been appointed by a concept). What both have in common, is the principal idea that thought may be separated from awareness (and vice versa), but not from self-awareness: there is no thought without a subject.

jacobsimon 2y ago

Wow so funny to see this post and comment right now, I’ve been writing out a lot of thoughts/theories on consciousness the last few days, and came to a very similar conclusion as you.

rramadass 2y ago
You might find this interesting - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479388