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So I was the kid playing SimCity and Civ and Legos and all these other "builder" toys growing up, who now has a 7-figure job at a FANG and still plays these sor

So I was the kid playing SimCity and Civ and Legos and all these other "builder" toys growing up, who now has a 7-figure job at a FANG and still plays these sort of constructivist games on the side. I'm also the parent of a kindergartner who spends a bunch of time playing Factorio and Cities/Skylines and Kingdoms Reborn and Legos. I'll tell you why I think people prefer to create elaborate worlds inside games rather than get that 6/7-figure job at a tech company: You are not actually a builder at a modern large tech company. My day job consists of lots and lots of org politics. I'm technically in management (though I tried to keep my SWE title as long as possible), and I view my job as "I put up with the political bullshit so that my reports don't have to." But realistically, they are not builders either. They are spelunkers, hackers, maybe even developers - but the majority of their job consists of digging around in a 5M-line codebase to understand what is possible, communicating that back up to management, and then implementing a trivial change because trivial changes are realistically all you can do in a 5M-line codebase. The builders were the folks I learned from, who were employed as SWEs 20 years ago. Computer games create just enough of an artificial, static sandbox that you can learn the rules and get really good at putting together parts. In a big tech company, some executive is going to change the rules in 3 months, and everything you know will be obsolete in a year. And that's not because the execs are stupid or capricious (although sometimes they are), but because the market's rules change every 3 months or so. Like it or not, a market economy's function is to satisfy people's desires, and as the article notes, people's desires are fleeting. But building requires foundations, it requires stability, and so we create that artificial stability with games so that you can build.

dexwiz 2y ago
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head on why I would rather “waste” time in Factorio than program at my enterprise SWE job. Because it’s closer to being a historian than a builder.
- fragmede 2y ago
  We just need to make a market for "I'll pay you $500 to upgrade this save game file's factory from yellow to red belt", and have buyers and sellers, and then we can have it actually be a job. Because there's some parts of factorio I enjoy, and some that I don't, but that's the addictiveness of it.
  - nostrademons 2y ago
    This exists for several games. Probably not Factorio specifically, but games like WoW or Everquest have loot & XP farms where people just grind for hours to make a super powerful character for you and then sell it.
    - dexwiz 2y ago
      I think the Factorio equivalent would be more like licensing chip designs. It doesn’t have the same false scarcity as other games.
abadpoli 2y ago
I’m in the same position as you, and I agree wholeheartedly. The one thing I’ll say is that I think 20 years is optimistic. I’ve been involved in a few huge, greenfield projects that were mostly building new things from the ground up. There was an air of “true” building around. But it was astonishing how quickly that faded away. It took less than a year after our first launch for a lot of people to start leaving the team, citing reasons like their job was now just drudgery maintenance work or small feature adjustments, which is definitely less attractive and inspiring. And that is reinforced by career paths as well. See: the trope about Google promotions based on new launches, not bugs fixed. And people definitely idolize “the engineer that built Linux” more than “the engineer that has patched 1000 linux bugs”.
godelski 2y ago
I've noticed some weird things. It seems that a few decades ago technological progress was about building the future we saw in Sci-Fi. Trying to build the things we dreamed and saw. But now it seems we just try to make hardware faster and smaller or software more... subscription-y. Even all the AI stuff isn't building these Star Trek, Star Wars, whatever like futures, unless we're talking about the dystopian near Sci-Fis of Black Mirror. I've also noticed that people are far more pessimistic about the future and at least in my social circles, I know far fewer people that read books or watch movies anymore. There's fewer people I know engaging in these world building activities, even in technological circles. There are definitely plenty, but these are never the people leading teams or even seem to be allowed to try many of their ideas. I think the thing is Silicon Valley stopped dreaming of the future world, and only about their future pockets. (an obvious over generalization, but dramatic for my point)
- nostrademons 2y ago
  Technological progress is still about building the future we saw in Sci-Fi, it's just that sci-fi has become increasingly dystopian. Parts of Black Mirror, The Diamond Age, Her, Children of Men, Upload, Don't Look Up, The Day After Tomorrow, etc have all made it into reality. Note that sci-fi goes through cycles. The optimistic Star Trek or Jetsons future was a product of the 1950s and 1960s, when people were generally pretty optimistic. 30s/40s sci-fi is Brave New World and 1984, which is a decidedly different vibe (and also came true in many ways).
  - brigadier132 2y ago
    This argument is so tired. You bring up "Her", do you not realize in star trek Data had romantic interests? The tech in those books is not what makes them dystopian and the reason those books have dystopian themes is because stories require conflict to be interesting. The tech is just a cool veneer.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      > the reason those books have dystopian themes is because stories require conflict to be interesting. The tech is just a cool veneer. No, that's just an excuse for lazy writing. And if our stories are predominantly this basic, it's hard to create a future that's better.
brigadier132 2y ago
Ok, so why don't you build things for fun that affect the real world outside of your office job? And before you tell me you are too tired of coding from your day job, which is the cliche response to this question, you can do anything, even woodworking, it just has to affect the real world and not a video game.
- nostrademons 2y ago
  The not-cliche response coming from about 8 years of experience as an entrepreneur: most people don't want you to affect the real world, or at least their real world. Most folks want to tightly control their environment, and today's world of cheap manufactured goods is already oversaturated with physical products. I think this is the real reason why people aren't building, and on a societal and not just individual level. Other people don't want them to. Just look at the response whenever someone tries building new housing or mass transit. It's endless environmental reviews, neighborhood reviews, lawsuits, public hearings, ballot initiatives, etc. The market for mobile apps dried up not because there aren't enough of them (there are millions) or that they're crap (90% are, but 90% of everything is crap), but because most people already have the apps they need to manage their daily life. When it comes to my real world, I do plenty of stuff. I garden, largely unsuccessfully, but now that's ballooned into construction projects to keep the dear away. I had the kids helping me redo my home's gutters and putting new crown moulding on, as well as assembling furniture and caulking the driveway. I'm in the process of organizing my kids' toys. But these also have diminishing returns: once the gutters are done I hopefully won't need to re-do them for another 10-20 years, the driveway caulking should last a few years at least. I don't feel any particular need to pick up a hobby like woodworking just for the sake of doing it; that's just as unproductive as computer gaming, but generally less fun.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > Ok, so why don't you build things for fun that affect the real world outside of your office job? > And before you tell me you are too tired of coding from your day job, which is the cliche response to this question For the first point: I do, but this does not change what you consider a cliché responses that 1. I am often very tired from my job 2. I can only invest little time (at night and at weekends), which is far too little to affect the world around me. I nevertheless invest these precious little ressources, but the reasons lie in my personal convictions.

dexwiz 2y ago

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head on why I would rather “waste” time in Factorio than program at my enterprise SWE job. Because it’s closer to being a historian than a builder.

fragmede 2y ago
We just need to make a market for "I'll pay you $500 to upgrade this save game file's factory from yellow to red belt", and have buyers and sellers, and then we can have it actually be a job. Because there's some parts of factorio I enjoy, and some that I don't, but that's the addictiveness of it.
- nostrademons 2y ago
  This exists for several games. Probably not Factorio specifically, but games like WoW or Everquest have loot & XP farms where people just grind for hours to make a super powerful character for you and then sell it.
  - dexwiz 2y ago
    I think the Factorio equivalent would be more like licensing chip designs. It doesn’t have the same false scarcity as other games.

abadpoli 2y ago

I’m in the same position as you, and I agree wholeheartedly. The one thing I’ll say is that I think 20 years is optimistic. I’ve been involved in a few huge, greenfield projects that were mostly building new things from the ground up. There was an air of “true” building around. But it was astonishing how quickly that faded away. It took less than a year after our first launch for a lot of people to start leaving the team, citing reasons like their job was now just drudgery maintenance work or small feature adjustments, which is definitely less attractive and inspiring. And that is reinforced by career paths as well. See: the trope about Google promotions based on new launches, not bugs fixed. And people definitely idolize “the engineer that built Linux” more than “the engineer that has patched 1000 linux bugs”.

godelski 2y ago

I've noticed some weird things. It seems that a few decades ago technological progress was about building the future we saw in Sci-Fi. Trying to build the things we dreamed and saw. But now it seems we just try to make hardware faster and smaller or software more... subscription-y. Even all the AI stuff isn't building these Star Trek, Star Wars, whatever like futures, unless we're talking about the dystopian near Sci-Fis of Black Mirror. I've also noticed that people are far more pessimistic about the future and at least in my social circles, I know far fewer people that read books or watch movies anymore. There's fewer people I know engaging in these world building activities, even in technological circles. There are definitely plenty, but these are never the people leading teams or even seem to be allowed to try many of their ideas. I think the thing is Silicon Valley stopped dreaming of the future world, and only about their future pockets. (an obvious over generalization, but dramatic for my point)

nostrademons 2y ago
Technological progress is still about building the future we saw in Sci-Fi, it's just that sci-fi has become increasingly dystopian. Parts of Black Mirror, The Diamond Age, Her, Children of Men, Upload, Don't Look Up, The Day After Tomorrow, etc have all made it into reality. Note that sci-fi goes through cycles. The optimistic Star Trek or Jetsons future was a product of the 1950s and 1960s, when people were generally pretty optimistic. 30s/40s sci-fi is Brave New World and 1984, which is a decidedly different vibe (and also came true in many ways).
- brigadier132 2y ago
  This argument is so tired. You bring up "Her", do you not realize in star trek Data had romantic interests? The tech in those books is not what makes them dystopian and the reason those books have dystopian themes is because stories require conflict to be interesting. The tech is just a cool veneer.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > the reason those books have dystopian themes is because stories require conflict to be interesting. The tech is just a cool veneer. No, that's just an excuse for lazy writing. And if our stories are predominantly this basic, it's hard to create a future that's better.

brigadier132 2y ago

Ok, so why don't you build things for fun that affect the real world outside of your office job? And before you tell me you are too tired of coding from your day job, which is the cliche response to this question, you can do anything, even woodworking, it just has to affect the real world and not a video game.

nostrademons 2y ago
The not-cliche response coming from about 8 years of experience as an entrepreneur: most people don't want you to affect the real world, or at least their real world. Most folks want to tightly control their environment, and today's world of cheap manufactured goods is already oversaturated with physical products. I think this is the real reason why people aren't building, and on a societal and not just individual level. Other people don't want them to. Just look at the response whenever someone tries building new housing or mass transit. It's endless environmental reviews, neighborhood reviews, lawsuits, public hearings, ballot initiatives, etc. The market for mobile apps dried up not because there aren't enough of them (there are millions) or that they're crap (90% are, but 90% of everything is crap), but because most people already have the apps they need to manage their daily life. When it comes to my real world, I do plenty of stuff. I garden, largely unsuccessfully, but now that's ballooned into construction projects to keep the dear away. I had the kids helping me redo my home's gutters and putting new crown moulding on, as well as assembling furniture and caulking the driveway. I'm in the process of organizing my kids' toys. But these also have diminishing returns: once the gutters are done I hopefully won't need to re-do them for another 10-20 years, the driveway caulking should last a few years at least. I don't feel any particular need to pick up a hobby like woodworking just for the sake of doing it; that's just as unproductive as computer gaming, but generally less fun.
aleph_minus_one 2y ago
> Ok, so why don't you build things for fun that affect the real world outside of your office job? > And before you tell me you are too tired of coding from your day job, which is the cliche response to this question For the first point: I do, but this does not change what you consider a cliché responses that 1. I am often very tired from my job 2. I can only invest little time (at night and at weekends), which is far too little to affect the world around me. I nevertheless invest these precious little ressources, but the reasons lie in my personal convictions.