14 ms·

Cannabis use linked to epigenetic changes, study reveals

61 points by XzetaU8 2y ago

aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 2y ago
> It's important to note that this study doesn't prove that cannabis directly causes these changes or causes health problems. Well okay then.
- dang 2y ago
  "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    That’s literally the only substantive information in the article. Aside from that sentence the article can be summarized as “we saw some changes and it is outside the scope of this study to figure out what, if any, impact they have” The correct response to this article is a shrug
    - dang 2y ago
      This may all be true, but the guideline still applies.
jaylittle 2y ago
[flagged]
- orionsbelt 2y ago
  Guess I’m officially old. What is delta-8?
  - fsmv 2y ago
    It's a cannabinoid from cannabis that has a double bond in a slightly different position from normal d9 THC but otherwise the same chemical formula that happens to be federally legal in the US from a loophole involving hemp (which is the same plant).
    - jaylittle 2y ago
      At least somebody else here has a clue, thanks for representing!
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - schwartzworld 2y ago
    Weed for people who don't live in legal states.
    - jaylittle 2y ago
      Yep. But in truth the alternative cannaboids are interesting on their own. That having been said I don’t live in a legal state but… it really doesn’t much matter anymore.
dangsquare 2y ago
[dead]
- dotps1 2y ago
  If you type things like 'lols' and are over 20, people will know you are mentally-regressed. Does it really matter if they know it's drugs or not?
  - kderbyma 2y ago
    Or perhaps, they have a sense of humour. Sorry, not sure how to teach you to have one though. I think humour is a type of intelligence that requires recognizing the hidden meaning...like 'lols' implies for textual representation of laughter...since it doesn't translate. or perhaps you realised that /s
    - dotps1 2y ago
      I was just giving them a hard time for unprompted bragging about being perpetually inebriated on a technology forum. No need to try and think too deeply about it.
swayvil 2y ago
[flagged]
- suroot 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - swayvil 2y ago
    Why?
    - suroot 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - swayvil 2y ago
        Good talk.
- seneca 2y ago
  I can generally spot a regular heavy user. The proverbial "burn out". I'm not sure I could say I know how to spot someone who started early, or is an occasional user. What is it that tips you off?
  - swayvil 2y ago
    Like I said, a certain look. A diminutiveness. A delicacy in the features. But overall a certain shape.
    - seneca 2y ago
      Ah, so actually a morphological difference? That's really interesting. I generally pin the cliche burn out more by the tired eyes, pallor of skin, and such, but again that's heavy users and transient. I didn't realize you meant something as permanent. I'd be curious to see an example if you happen to know one you could link.
tombert 2y ago
I will admit that I have a borderline-irrational hatred for weed culture, so consider this a disclosure of biases [1]. Despite the lecture I've gotten from every stoner on this, I've never been convinced by people claiming that weed doesn't have side effects. It always seemed like it would make my friends' personalities frustrating, even when they weren't stoned. A lot of this could just be attributed to the fact that "teenage boys are just kind of insufferable anyway", but it always seemed like weed exacerbated things. [2] Obviously this isn't a study, just vibes on my end, so it can reasonably be dismissed immediately, but it does seem like my feelings on this stuff is being a little validated. [1] I still think it should be legal since I think enforcing it is worse than doing it, but I think it'll always make me uncomfortable [2] I was always terrified of doing any illegal drugs because I was always afraid that drug dealers would cut it with something horrible, so I to this day have never done any drugs that weren't federally legal.
- ludston 2y ago
  Even if it doesn't have physical side effects, it certainly must have psychological ones. My pet theory is that people relying on substances to emotionally regulate can neglect to develop the regular skills that everybody who doesn't rely on substances use for emotional regulation. And that's why some 40 year old stoner's will seem to have the emotional maturity levels of teenagers.
  - notyourwork 2y ago
    Don't take this as a disagreement but I wonder from reading your comment: Is there a right way to live life? Your statement appears to be passing judgement to an adult using marijuana as a coping mechanism. Do you also have the same feeling for someone who takes a prescribed medicine for similar emotional regulation? I get there is a line here with certain mental disorders but if someone finds themselves better off (in their own opinion) by using marijuana who are you, or I to judge? Similarly, I don't judge the person who picks up their monthly Rx at the pharmacy, if it makes them feel good. At the end of the day people are just trying to live their life and be comfortable.
roughly 2y ago
As far as I can tell, there’s very little one can do for any extended time without creating epigenetic changes. Epigenetic changes are durable changes in gene expression within the cell - we already know that fasting or food deprivation create epigenetic changes, and the mechanism of cell differentiation generally (muscle vs liver cells, say) is epigenetic. I’m not going to defend long-term high-level cannabis usage - I’ve got eyes - but I’d suspect we’re going to find more things in the “causes epigenetic effects” bucket than not.
toxicdevil 2y ago
Partially unrelated, but I always post this whenever cannabis is discussed, as a PSA. Proponents often say that this drug is harmless but in some people it's use can trigger psychiatric illnesses esp. schizophrenia and related disorders. In others it can actually exacerbate anxiety (its somewhat counter intuitive, just like some antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts). Some people are genetically more predisposed to the effects. This is a personal topic for me because cannabis (ab)use triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members, they had to be hospitalized multiple times (psych ward is no joke) and put on antipsychotics (which are also very hard on you and drain the life out of you). Their actions during the psychotic/manic phase disrupted their family and work lives. Both people were unwilling to cease cannabis use, citing its public acceptability and reasons like "it's legal", "you literally can't overdose on it", "a(n) (internet) doctor prescribed it to me for anxiety so I can use it", "everyone uses it and is fine", "xyz (popular celebrity) uses it". After multiple stints in the psych ward and the threat of government mandated treatments they were finally able to drop cannabis use, it then took them many months to come back to normal functioning.
- apwell23 2y ago
  how do you know that they were just using cannabis?
- galdosdi 2y ago
  Thank you. A big factor that excarbates this issue is that the legal cannabis industryha greedily amped up THC potency by an order of magnitude. 5% was typical in the 1990s. Today it's hard to find lower than 20%. And that's just plain flower, whereas many users vape instead which is even more potent and way easier to abuse by using all day at work and school secretly. Studies and anecdotes agree that higher potency means more symptoms of the sort you discuss and most importantly more addiction and habit forming. So the industry does this on purpose out of greed, and the states have no clue how to stop it. What do you think would happen if after the 1930s alcohol had been relegalized but suddenly only high proof vodka was available? Because that is the disaster that has happened with legal weed. We thought we were legalizing the weed we knew and instead they used it as a door to carpet bomb us with ultra high potency products. The cause of this fiasco is again, greed.
puffybuf 2y ago
My biggest concern with weed is that it stays in your system for a long time, much longer than the actual high. THC is fat soluble, getting stored in the body's fatty tissue, and can slowly enter the blood days after using. This means it can affect you for days. I usually feel off for 24 hours after vaping cannabis. My other concern for legal states: I think a lot of people using weed are doing it every single day. This is because it gives a relaxing 'weight off your shoulders' feeling at lower doses. At higher doses you get 'faded' and it can be scary. Using daily means the high becomes your new normal, affecting memory and reasoning. It definitely helps with exercise (much less boring) and sleep for me, but at what cost?
- grubbs 2y ago
  Edibles also seem to make my body work overtime to process. I always feel like crap the next day.
  - mountainriver 2y ago
    Exact opposite for me, edibles give me the best sleep ever
ok_dad 2y ago
Every story in here, for or against cannabis, basically has no evidence. A lot of stories about people who went nuts when they took weed, but no studies of if the weed caused it or just revealed it. A lot of stereotypes for people who took weed. A lot of people saying weed is scary or perfectly normal. A lot of stories with no studies or experiments. I hope the rescheduling helps this in the USA.
- LeroyRaz 2y ago
  A quick Google gives reputable looking studies on the topic, e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-02112-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-02112-8
Slava_Propanei 2y ago
[dead]
wfhBrian 2y ago
Reading HN causes epigenetic changes... If you don't get that, then you don't understand epigenetics My impression of this thread is "I don't know the difference between genetics and epigenetics, so here is my opinion on weed..." The only reason I know the difference is because I used to use the gym at the same time as an epigeneticist. In short, all genes can be flipped on/off based on their environment. And reading HN does impact the environment in which your genes live
- stevenAthompson 2y ago
  I read a study some time back about verbal abuse causing epigenetic changes.It seems that even people being mean to you is all it takes. I feel like we may not fully understand what these changes really signify.
aarmenaa 2y ago
I presume the uptick I've noticed of "weed is really bad, actually" articles filling my news feed and social media is a response to the imminent classification changes in the US in an attempt to sway public opinion. I can only assume this is being driven by parties with ill intent, who prefer the status quo of using the phrase "I smell weed" to end-run constitutional protections against search and seizure, allowing unequal enforcement of the law, and selling less effective but more expensive treatments for ailments cannabis is known to be effective for.
- datavirtue 2y ago
  This is an active topic of conversation in the law enforcement community. The changes and adaptations of not being able to catch criminals using the illegality of weed as probable cause.
  - Teever 2y ago
    That sounds fascinating. Can you provide any links to online discussion about this? I would love to be a fly on the wall.
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
      This was over a decade ago, but I idiotically drove from my "weed legal" home state into a much-less-friendly state... ultimately arrested for flakes found beneath passenger seat (was absolutely sober), in a state where 0.009oz == same "up to 2oz" misdemeanor charges. The police in this tiny Texas town acted like they had caught Pablo Escobar, and not an impoverished college dropout... For my defense attorney, I chose a well-recommended private attorney (futureMe: I would use the public defender because it would have been the same outcome). His services cost me around a pound of "top shelf" kush. I was broke. Ultimately I "served my time" [2mo. probation + community service]. Just a few years ago this attorney said to me, in private: "but if we didn't have this legislation [prohibiting marijuana] then I would be out of the job!" I guess I was supposed to feel bad for his archaic legal practice/funding?
- tbrownaw 2y ago
lotophage 2y ago
Could these changes be attributed to smoke inhalation?
veunes 2y ago
Cannabis is fritening for me as I've seen some people with issues

61 points by XzetaU8 2y ago

> It's important to note that this study doesn't prove that cannabis directly causes these changes or causes health problems. Well okay then.

dang 2y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jrflowers 2y ago
  That’s literally the only substantive information in the article. Aside from that sentence the article can be summarized as “we saw some changes and it is outside the scope of this study to figure out what, if any, impact they have” The correct response to this article is a shrug
  - dang 2y ago
    This may all be true, but the guideline still applies.

jaylittle 2y ago

[flagged]

orionsbelt 2y ago
Guess I’m officially old. What is delta-8?
- fsmv 2y ago
  It's a cannabinoid from cannabis that has a double bond in a slightly different position from normal d9 THC but otherwise the same chemical formula that happens to be federally legal in the US from a loophole involving hemp (which is the same plant).
  - jaylittle 2y ago
    At least somebody else here has a clue, thanks for representing!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- schwartzworld 2y ago
  Weed for people who don't live in legal states.
  - jaylittle 2y ago
    Yep. But in truth the alternative cannaboids are interesting on their own. That having been said I don’t live in a legal state but… it really doesn’t much matter anymore.

dangsquare 2y ago

[dead]

dotps1 2y ago
If you type things like 'lols' and are over 20, people will know you are mentally-regressed. Does it really matter if they know it's drugs or not?
- kderbyma 2y ago
  Or perhaps, they have a sense of humour. Sorry, not sure how to teach you to have one though. I think humour is a type of intelligence that requires recognizing the hidden meaning...like 'lols' implies for textual representation of laughter...since it doesn't translate. or perhaps you realised that /s
  - dotps1 2y ago
    I was just giving them a hard time for unprompted bragging about being perpetually inebriated on a technology forum. No need to try and think too deeply about it.

swayvil 2y ago

[flagged]

suroot 2y ago
[flagged]
- swayvil 2y ago
  Why?
  - suroot 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - swayvil 2y ago
      Good talk.
seneca 2y ago
I can generally spot a regular heavy user. The proverbial "burn out". I'm not sure I could say I know how to spot someone who started early, or is an occasional user. What is it that tips you off?
- swayvil 2y ago
  Like I said, a certain look. A diminutiveness. A delicacy in the features. But overall a certain shape.
  - seneca 2y ago
    Ah, so actually a morphological difference? That's really interesting. I generally pin the cliche burn out more by the tired eyes, pallor of skin, and such, but again that's heavy users and transient. I didn't realize you meant something as permanent. I'd be curious to see an example if you happen to know one you could link.

tombert 2y ago

I will admit that I have a borderline-irrational hatred for weed culture, so consider this a disclosure of biases [1]. Despite the lecture I've gotten from every stoner on this, I've never been convinced by people claiming that weed doesn't have side effects. It always seemed like it would make my friends' personalities frustrating, even when they weren't stoned. A lot of this could just be attributed to the fact that "teenage boys are just kind of insufferable anyway", but it always seemed like weed exacerbated things. [2] Obviously this isn't a study, just vibes on my end, so it can reasonably be dismissed immediately, but it does seem like my feelings on this stuff is being a little validated. [1] I still think it should be legal since I think enforcing it is worse than doing it, but I think it'll always make me uncomfortable [2] I was always terrified of doing any illegal drugs because I was always afraid that drug dealers would cut it with something horrible, so I to this day have never done any drugs that weren't federally legal.

ludston 2y ago
Even if it doesn't have physical side effects, it certainly must have psychological ones. My pet theory is that people relying on substances to emotionally regulate can neglect to develop the regular skills that everybody who doesn't rely on substances use for emotional regulation. And that's why some 40 year old stoner's will seem to have the emotional maturity levels of teenagers.
- notyourwork 2y ago
  Don't take this as a disagreement but I wonder from reading your comment: Is there a right way to live life? Your statement appears to be passing judgement to an adult using marijuana as a coping mechanism. Do you also have the same feeling for someone who takes a prescribed medicine for similar emotional regulation? I get there is a line here with certain mental disorders but if someone finds themselves better off (in their own opinion) by using marijuana who are you, or I to judge? Similarly, I don't judge the person who picks up their monthly Rx at the pharmacy, if it makes them feel good. At the end of the day people are just trying to live their life and be comfortable.

roughly 2y ago

As far as I can tell, there’s very little one can do for any extended time without creating epigenetic changes. Epigenetic changes are durable changes in gene expression within the cell - we already know that fasting or food deprivation create epigenetic changes, and the mechanism of cell differentiation generally (muscle vs liver cells, say) is epigenetic. I’m not going to defend long-term high-level cannabis usage - I’ve got eyes - but I’d suspect we’re going to find more things in the “causes epigenetic effects” bucket than not.

toxicdevil 2y ago

Partially unrelated, but I always post this whenever cannabis is discussed, as a PSA. Proponents often say that this drug is harmless but in some people it's use can trigger psychiatric illnesses esp. schizophrenia and related disorders. In others it can actually exacerbate anxiety (its somewhat counter intuitive, just like some antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts). Some people are genetically more predisposed to the effects. This is a personal topic for me because cannabis (ab)use triggered psychotic episodes in two of my close family members, they had to be hospitalized multiple times (psych ward is no joke) and put on antipsychotics (which are also very hard on you and drain the life out of you). Their actions during the psychotic/manic phase disrupted their family and work lives. Both people were unwilling to cease cannabis use, citing its public acceptability and reasons like "it's legal", "you literally can't overdose on it", "a(n) (internet) doctor prescribed it to me for anxiety so I can use it", "everyone uses it and is fine", "xyz (popular celebrity) uses it". After multiple stints in the psych ward and the threat of government mandated treatments they were finally able to drop cannabis use, it then took them many months to come back to normal functioning.

apwell23 2y ago
how do you know that they were just using cannabis?
galdosdi 2y ago
Thank you. A big factor that excarbates this issue is that the legal cannabis industryha greedily amped up THC potency by an order of magnitude. 5% was typical in the 1990s. Today it's hard to find lower than 20%. And that's just plain flower, whereas many users vape instead which is even more potent and way easier to abuse by using all day at work and school secretly. Studies and anecdotes agree that higher potency means more symptoms of the sort you discuss and most importantly more addiction and habit forming. So the industry does this on purpose out of greed, and the states have no clue how to stop it. What do you think would happen if after the 1930s alcohol had been relegalized but suddenly only high proof vodka was available? Because that is the disaster that has happened with legal weed. We thought we were legalizing the weed we knew and instead they used it as a door to carpet bomb us with ultra high potency products. The cause of this fiasco is again, greed.

puffybuf 2y ago

My biggest concern with weed is that it stays in your system for a long time, much longer than the actual high. THC is fat soluble, getting stored in the body's fatty tissue, and can slowly enter the blood days after using. This means it can affect you for days. I usually feel off for 24 hours after vaping cannabis. My other concern for legal states: I think a lot of people using weed are doing it every single day. This is because it gives a relaxing 'weight off your shoulders' feeling at lower doses. At higher doses you get 'faded' and it can be scary. Using daily means the high becomes your new normal, affecting memory and reasoning. It definitely helps with exercise (much less boring) and sleep for me, but at what cost?

grubbs 2y ago
Edibles also seem to make my body work overtime to process. I always feel like crap the next day.
- mountainriver 2y ago
  Exact opposite for me, edibles give me the best sleep ever

ok_dad 2y ago

Every story in here, for or against cannabis, basically has no evidence. A lot of stories about people who went nuts when they took weed, but no studies of if the weed caused it or just revealed it. A lot of stereotypes for people who took weed. A lot of people saying weed is scary or perfectly normal. A lot of stories with no studies or experiments. I hope the rescheduling helps this in the USA.

LeroyRaz 2y ago
A quick Google gives reputable looking studies on the topic, e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-02112-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-022-02112-8

Slava_Propanei 2y ago

[dead]

wfhBrian 2y ago

Reading HN causes epigenetic changes... If you don't get that, then you don't understand epigenetics My impression of this thread is "I don't know the difference between genetics and epigenetics, so here is my opinion on weed..." The only reason I know the difference is because I used to use the gym at the same time as an epigeneticist. In short, all genes can be flipped on/off based on their environment. And reading HN does impact the environment in which your genes live

stevenAthompson 2y ago
I read a study some time back about verbal abuse causing epigenetic changes.It seems that even people being mean to you is all it takes. I feel like we may not fully understand what these changes really signify.

aarmenaa 2y ago

I presume the uptick I've noticed of "weed is really bad, actually" articles filling my news feed and social media is a response to the imminent classification changes in the US in an attempt to sway public opinion. I can only assume this is being driven by parties with ill intent, who prefer the status quo of using the phrase "I smell weed" to end-run constitutional protections against search and seizure, allowing unequal enforcement of the law, and selling less effective but more expensive treatments for ailments cannabis is known to be effective for.

datavirtue 2y ago
This is an active topic of conversation in the law enforcement community. The changes and adaptations of not being able to catch criminals using the illegality of weed as probable cause.
- Teever 2y ago
  That sounds fascinating. Can you provide any links to online discussion about this? I would love to be a fly on the wall.
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    This was over a decade ago, but I idiotically drove from my "weed legal" home state into a much-less-friendly state... ultimately arrested for flakes found beneath passenger seat (was absolutely sober), in a state where 0.009oz == same "up to 2oz" misdemeanor charges. The police in this tiny Texas town acted like they had caught Pablo Escobar, and not an impoverished college dropout... For my defense attorney, I chose a well-recommended private attorney (futureMe: I would use the public defender because it would have been the same outcome). His services cost me around a pound of "top shelf" kush. I was broke. Ultimately I "served my time" [2mo. probation + community service]. Just a few years ago this attorney said to me, in private: "but if we didn't have this legislation [prohibiting marijuana] then I would be out of the job!" I guess I was supposed to feel bad for his archaic legal practice/funding?
tbrownaw 2y ago

lotophage 2y ago

Could these changes be attributed to smoke inhalation?

veunes 2y ago

Cannabis is fritening for me as I've seen some people with issues